|
Author
|
Comment
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/6/05 10:33 am)
|
research on blood
Wow - what a well educated group! I'm really hopeful you may have some answers for me. I've been knee-deep in research for over a year on a book that was originally supposed to be about Cassandra of Troy and her relationship with Apollo. The scientific Establishment holds that there was a great catyclism around 1200 BC, the time of the fall of Troy, that resulted in every Mediterranean civilization being burned to the ground, followed by a dark age of 500 years, where even the art of writing was lost. Eventually, a new race of "sea people" took over Greece and placed their rulers in all the other kingdoms. The first great writer of the new age, Homer, wrote the legend of Troy as he had heard it as a boy, passed down from mouth to mouth for many generations.
Modern scientists, working independently, and without the blessing of the Scientific Establishment, have over the past century come to the conclusion that the timelines of the ancient world are totally scewed by 500 years, and that no dark age ever existed.
By comparing ancient records, they have carefully documented a very compelling revision of history. A new, darker picture emerges, of the clash between the societies of the goddess-dominated culture of pre-1200 BC times, to the god-dominated culture of post 1200 BC, (around the time the Israelites left Egypt). Despite the bitter denunciations of each cult for the other, the similarities in their beliefs and practices are startling. Each continually assimilated the other, and both are based on something even older.
All of these practices appear to center on blood. The giving and taking of blood, human and animal, whether as a sacrifice or as a prize, forms the basis of all religious and supernatural rituals - including Christian Communion. Blood also figures prominently in all legends and lore of old - including fairy tales.
My book has since morphed from what was to be a clever light novel using Nephilim legends and Greek folklore, to a more weighty book, centered on a horrific Celtic/Cretian priestess desperate to stay alive through the millenia by any means, including the possesion and sacrifice of her descendents. It's not exactly fiction, if the things I've turned up in my research are true.
People, I am getting my head around some pretty far out stuff. Some of the things our ancestors knew about the world of the fairy/sidhe have been lost in our sanitized, politically correct modern society. We have forgotten that the children of Lilith have no souls, and no love, and we now think of fairies as cute little angels of sweetness and light. The people who told the original fairy tales around their fires at night were not passing on the stories as entertainment, but as education. The heroines and heroes were examples of what happened to those who crossed the line into the world of shadow, as warnings, to the children who listened by the fire, surrounded by the darkness.
And it all keeps coming down to blood. It is driving me nuts. I just cannot get a handle on the significance of this mundane, common mixture of saline water and cells. Red blood cells do not even contain DNA - the only cells of our body that do not carry the fingerprint of our personal essence. So why is blood so potent???
I am throwing the question out to you. Do you have any ideas - any gut feelings - any bits of info to share? Thank you for reading my ramblings. I am beginning to feel overwhelmed by the reams of notes at my feet and the conflicting, confusing thoughts in my poor mortal brain. I could really use some fresh perspectives. Any takers? Glee
|
Writerpatrick
Registered User
(11/6/05 10:55 am)
|
Re: research on blood
"I am throwing the question out to you."
I think you need to define the question a little more clearly. I assume you're asking about why blood seemed so important. That comes down to a less sophisticated understanding of medicine than we have today. Blood was thought to contain one's life. Sacrifices, both animal and man, were about sacrificing life.
As for animal sacrifices, the carcas (meat, bone, etc.) of the animal would have been used by the people. It was the life of the animal that was being sacrificed. (In contrast, plant and harvest sacrifices would have used up all the material, hence why the harvest sacrifice was more pleasing to God in the Cain and Abel story.)
Human sacrifices would have had a variety of reasons, but all would have involved the sacrifice of life. It's possible that in some religions, such as the Astec, they understood death as being caused by a "god's" hunger, so sacrificing select individuals was suppose to ensure their own life. (But I'm just speculating.)
|
neverossa
Registered User
(11/6/05 12:29 pm)
|
Re: research on blood
Writerpatrick is quite right. Actually I think I've more than a feeling on blood: it's my research topic, in early modern Europe. In the ancient world there was no idea related to DNA, I'm afraid, or cells or whatever - blood was the vehicle of life. It was the borderline between the living and the dead, being both the sign of danger and loss, when transgressing the body's boundaries (through a wound for example), and the sign of actual energy of life. Your question is really too wide, but I can give you some scattered suggestions you can check:
first of all (if you are interested in the religious meaning of blood) check the Ancient Bible, especially the Leviticus. You'll find a lot of prescriptions related to blood and pollution. Blood is the element of God, therefore forbidden to human beings, during sarifices. They can eat the meat, but leave the blood for God. In ancient Greece you have that the bones are the element of the divine power, while blood is polluting with death and life.
The Celts used to drink the blood of their dead enemies in order to empower themselves with the strenght of the defeated men.
Check the books of the anthropologist Mary Douglas for pollution, menstrual blood and so on, she's wonderful.
Rene Girard also, Violence and the Sacred, is good for sacrificial practices in anthropology.
Something on the body and the four humours: medieval and early modern texts are full of Aristotelian and Galenic ideas regarding that.
Medieval saints experienced "Christ" through their blood.
Women and boylore (Menstruation).
Fairies. Well fairies are liminal creatures, quite dangerous: they can consume human beings, and of course they are related to blood: they steal milk. And milk was not a so different matter from blood... It was a refined blood.
Also check here the thread on Anti-semitism there is a bit of speculation on blood, that you can find interesting.
I'm not so sure I've understood what exactly you are looking for, but I hope to have been of some help.
Check also Stith Thompson Index of the fairy tales motifs. It's full of blood. Finally in symbolic terms blood is still the element of life. Think of poetry. Yeats, Plath and the contemporary Olds used a lot of blood in their works.
Edited by: neverossa at: 11/6/05 12:31 pm
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/6/05 12:47 pm)
|
Re: research on blood
Thank you both, very much. Yes, I did make the question a wide one, because I don't know specifically what it is that I need. I only know that where ever my research leads me, I keep coming back to blood. I am actually hoping that the word suggests something different to each person who reads this thread. By casting a wide net, I hope to catch a wide variety of ideas and possible leads.
Blood is the life, according to every major ancient belief - the essence of life itself. I keep hoping that my medical and chemical research will turn up something to reinforce that scientifically. The best horror stories are those that contain the element of truth, and which are plausible. What raises the goosebumps on the reader is not the monstrous alien, but the familiar face that says "boo".
Although our red cells do not contain our DNA, our blood has the potential to someday be the source of stem cells, which can become anything we want them to become. Pretty amazing stuff right there.
Blood is somehow the key to the story I'm writing. I only know I have to have a strong grasp of what it means in order to move forward. Do I sound frustrated? You BETCHA! Glee
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/6/05 1:02 pm)
|
Re: research on blood
Neverossa - I just read the Anti-Semantic thread - good stuff! Thanks! Glee
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/6/05 1:04 pm)
|
Re: research on blood
eek - anti-Semitic I mean - my brain is turning to mush...
|
Danae26
Registered User
(11/6/05 3:06 pm)
|
Re: research on blood
In one of the lais of Marie de France (I don't have my book to hand to check which one), two noblemen (husband and lover of the same lady) return from a hunting expedition, and then they go through a bizarre ritual of bloodletting. It is ostensibly done for health reasons, but I have always thought that perhaps there is more to it. Is it a test of manhood, a show of strength, stamina, etc? This seems particularly relevant in terms of the implicit rivalry of the two men, over the woman. I'm only beginning to consider this issue, for my Medieval Studies Mphil (focusing on French and Celtic tales of the early middle ages), but perhaps its an idea worth considering.
|
neverossa
Registered User
(11/6/05 4:40 pm)
|
Blood-letting
In the past they use blood-letting to heal several alleged or real illnesses. There was no idea of the circulation of blood until the 17th century, and so the blood could stop and clog the organism. That's why they use blood-letting. Everything could influence your blood, from the outside, and the blood could stagnate inside the body causing sickness.
|
Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(11/6/05 10:39 pm)
|
blood
Well, blood is life insofar as if you lose too much of it, you die. That seems pretty biologically straightforward to me. Also, menstrual blood is the marker of fertility in women, and thus linked with sexuality.
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/7/05 6:56 pm)
|
Re: blood
Yes - menstrual blood is an extremely significant thing in most cultures. Women have traditionally been sent into seclusion during their menses not because they are icky, but becaue their mystical powers during this time would affect others around them. (I love the bumper sticker: "They are not hot flashes, they are power surges") And not just in ancient times and in primitive societies - you would not believe the websites I've come across, where people who are seriously into magic TODAY go into great detail about menstrual blood's powers and uses!
I did not know that human milk was considered "refined" blood - fascinating! And I also did not realize that the concept of circulation was not known until so recently, and that the amount of blood we had was thought of as finite. The "four humours" are mentioned a lot - but I never bothered to find out what they were - what a dummy I am to have missed that - of course it fits that sperm would be one and water the other. Back to the drawing board for me again!
If anybody else wants to jump in with a thought or a question, please do! I am learning so much from you. I cannot thank you enough! Glee
|
Judith Berman
Registered User
(11/7/05 8:33 pm)
|
Menstrual blood, power, and pollution
Well, the "ickiness" factor is hard to measure from this point in time and space... but a lot of ethnographic material on menstrual blood suggests that it was considered BOTH powerful and polluting. For example, among the Kwakwaka'wakw (north Pacific coast) dogs (unclean) and menstruating women were kept away from the first-caught salmon of the year. WIDESPREAD taboos on menstruating women entering the water when salmon were going upstream because they would turn around and go away. Somewhere Freddy de Laguna has a comment about how it was true, which made me think she tested it! Taboos on menstruating women and hunting implements also. There was an interesting short piece in the AMERICAN ANTHROPOLOGIST back maybe in the late 80s about experiments with deer and menstrual blood showing that they would consistently avoid apples with very small amounts, suggesting an empirical reason, the smell. And then of course there are grizzlies and menstrual blood.
But among the Kwakwaka'wakw dangerous spirits as well as food animals (also considered spirits) avoided menstrual blood. Women would take bits of menstrual napkin on trips to ward them off. People in dangerous wild ecstasies brought on by contact with spirits could be returned to their human state by menstruating women... IIRC, via the smoke from burning menstrual napkins. So the usual woman=nature, man=culture opposition seems here to be stood on its head--the menstruating woman is the human, secularizing, non-wild-nature influence.
|
midori
snyder
Registered User
(11/8/05 10:11 am)
ezSupporter
|
Re: Menstrual blood, power, and pollution
My French grandmother believed that it was impossible to make mayonnaise if one was menstruating because as she argued, everything must be absolutely "clean" inorder for the oil and egg to blend perfectly.
A Xhosa storyteller, Mazitatu Zenani strongly believed that male circumcision among the Xhosa was the act of young males reproducing the onset of menstruation in the ritual shedding of blood. Both were outward signs of maturation.
|
Judith Berman
Registered User
(11/8/05 10:47 am)
|
more on pollution and power
There was a book published back in the 80s (?) by Anna Miegs on food taboos among the Hua in New Guinea, don't know if she has done anything more recently or other work on it. Among the Hua whole classes of food are taboo to the men because they resemble menstrual blood or other aspects of female sexuality, and are symbolically linked to same. Women are dangerous and polluting in part because wives always come from other social groups. But women have lots of vital essence, while men don't have enough... Just before Anna Miegs left the field she was told what the men were really up to in their special men's house out in the forest: various activities including eating all the taboo foods in order to obtain needed vital essence.
The circumcision/menstruation connection is not uncommon in Africa, I think... some Australian groups traditionally carried the notion further with the practice of subincision, where a cut is made deliberately in order that the boy/man thenceforth will be forced to urinate squatting like a woman.
Edited by: Judith Berman at: 11/8/05 2:35 pm
|
Mirjana1
Registered User
(11/8/05 1:59 pm)
|
Blood in the story of Rusalka
This motif must be quite common, but as a reference, here is an examlpe:in the story of "Rusalka", an opera by Antonin Dvorak, based on libreto by Kvapil, Rusalka (a forest version of little mermaid) wants to be human and asks Jezibaba, forest witch, for a potion that will turn her into the human being. Jezibaba performs a ritual and she uses "three drops of blood".
Later on, when Rusalka returns broken hearted from Prince's castle and asks is there a way for her to return to her sisters, water nymphs, Jezibaba tells her only blood can do that, and gives her the knife to kill the prince.
Fascination with blood is probaby most visible in today movies (of any sort) where it makes stong statement whichever way it is portrayed - washing blooded hands, messages writen on walls with blood, not to mention all kinds of bloody carnage in horror movies. If there's no blood, it just not dramatic enough!
|
neverossa
Registered User
(11/8/05 3:19 pm)
|
Four humours and menstrual blood
Sperm was a refined blood, like milk. The four humours are blood, phlegm, choler (yellow bile) and melancholy (black bile). If you want to check a source of the time, give a look to Robert Burton ANATOMY OF MELANCHOLY, written in the 17th century. It's a wonderful book.
Menstrual blood was believed to form the matter for the foetus, while the sperm gave to it the spirit. Check the book by THOMAS LAQUEUR Making Sex. Body and Gender from the Greeks to Freud. Menstruated women affected milk, butter, cream and so on, thanks to sympathetic magic.
A book full of sources - just follow the index and give a look, is the one by STEPHEN WILSON. The magical universe.
I'm in a hurry, but I'll come back on the topic!
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/8/05 8:04 pm)
|
Re: Four humours and menstrual blood
Thanks Neverossa - I'll start checking those sources - you have really done a lot of research - thank you for being so willing to share your hard work with me!
Judith - thanks - interesting thoughts! I had a friend who used to train horses. She could not work with the males when she was menstruating. It made them too skittish to be around her. I've heard similar comments from women who volunteer in animal shelters about male dogs. We are animals too - and something every college dorm soon discovers is that within a few months, all the girls' cycles are in synch. Women who ive or work closely together seem to all get pregnant at the same time, too.
Thanks to everyone who is taking the time to comment - please, please continue! Glee
|
Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(11/9/05 4:34 am)
|
Re: Four humours and menstrual blood
Quote:
something every college dorm soon discovers is that within a few months, all the girls' cycles are in synch
I don't know. I went to a women's college, and while I'd heard this bit of folklore over and over again, it never happened to me and my friends in my three years of dorm living.
|
gigi
Unregistered User
(11/9/05 10:10 pm)
|
Cycles
One of the teen magazines I stil read had an article in it a while back about your cycle in sync with your rommmate.
It tends to be true if you spend a lot of time with someone. My mother and I are usually only a week apart. My best friend and I when we finally see each other in the summer we tend to start our periods together after the first month. It makes it very convenient when you forget your purse in the car.
Yeah probably a random tangent and a bit of TMI but i just wantd you to know that it is very true. (Half of my cross country team is the same and thats about 40 girls too..)
Have you thought of blood oaths and blood brother type things in your research...?
and what abou tthe link of vampires and blood?
gigi
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/10/05 6:34 am)
|
Re: Cycles and Vampires
Gigi, you would not believe the amount of sites by and for people who claim to be modern-day Vampires. Most claim lineage to "families" descended from such people as Helen of Troy and Mary Magdelene. The families also claim to be descended from the Nephilim, the offspring of the angels who followed Satan, who lusted after the daughers of men, according to the Bible. (The Flood of Noah was for the purpose of destroying this line). I came upon the sites when one popped up as I Googled Helen of Troy for my novel, and started this obsession of mine to find the blood connection.
Unfortunately, none of the sites have so far proven to be very informative or even very entertaining. Counts Dracula must have been a pretty shallow guy. But I did find a college professor in Connecticut who recently wrote a serious treatment of vampirism past and present. His book had some useful leads, and he was nice enough to answer a couple of letters for me. There seem to be a lot more dark uses for blood ingestion than light.
The Sami, or Laplanders, have been involved in a blood relationship with thier reindeer for centuries, and my correspondence with someone who is a famous writer from that country was fascinating.
I'm looking into the blood-brother relationship right now, as I am doing a lot of Native American storytelling right now, during the Thanksgiving season, and the question came up from one of my young listeners.
Thanks for the mention of your own experience with monthly cycles - I've experienced it often enough, myself, to know there is something to it. Glee
|
AliceCEB
Registered User
(11/10/05 12:14 pm)
|
Re: Cycles and Vampires
Okay, this is my math side of me coming out. That women's cycles fall at about the same time is statistically, well, not that significant. Depending on how you look at it there's 1/2 of 2/3 of a chance that someone's menstrual cycle will coincide for at least one day with someone else's.
Here's the math part. Most women have cycles that last about 5 to 7 days. Let's use 6 days as a benchmark. Assume for a moment that a woman begins menstruating on October 6. She will overlap with any woman who began menstruating from October 1 to October 11 (these last ones ending their cycles on October 16)--those who begin menstruating earlier will overlap at the end of their cycles, and those who begin to menstruate later will overlap at the beginning of their cycles. That's better than half the month where two women can have ovelapping cycles.
Psychologically, especially if you forget your purse, it feels like people are having it at the same time, especially with a large number of women. In a group, this larger number of women translates into a larger number of overlaps: one woman starts on October 1, overlaps with someone who starts on October 6, who overlaps with someone who starts on October 11, who overlaps with someone who starts on October 16, who then overlaps with someone who starts on October 21. They all talk to each other and say: "Wow, we have our cycles almost all at the same time since we've all overlapped each other." In fact, the cycles have been throughout the month.
My experience has been very much like Veronica--I never saw this supposed "convergence," except in overlaps as I've described.
Best,
Alice
Edited by: AliceCEB at: 11/10/05 12:36 pm
|
GleeDays2
Registered User
(11/10/05 5:46 pm)
|
Re: Cycles and Vampires
Thanks Alice and Veronica. While I respect your opinions, we all have different life experiences. Mine has been to have too many "coincidences" to chalk it up strictly to chance. Being an opinionated Old Poop, I hold to what fellow curmudgeon Mark Twain said about there only being three kinds of lies - lies, damned lies and statistics. LOL!
|
|
