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Author
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Comment
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shiregirl2001
Registered User
(5/14/05 3:25 pm)
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Old witches/ladies
I am interested in tales of older women/witches who are "good" as opposed to "bad". So many old witches/ladies in fairy tales seem to be malicious: the witch in Hansel and Gretlal, Jorinda and Jorindel, Cinderella's step-mother, etc.
How many examples of positive matrons are there in these stories?
Also, I'm interested in why older women are usually working with the darker forces. What does it represent?
Edited by: shiregirl2001 at: 5/14/05 3:34 pm
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(5/14/05 5:08 pm)
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Re: Old witches/ladies
You might want to take a look at Marina Warner's From the Beast
to the Blonde. This issue has been the focus of quite a lot
of feminist fairy-tale criticism over the past couple decades, and
Warner's book is a good place to start. For good or ambiguous older
women, there's Cinderella's fairy godmother in the versions in which
she has a fairy godmother, and Baba Yaga.
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Writerpatrick
Registered User
(5/15/05 10:43 am)
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Re: Old witches/ladies
I'm reminded of Mother Hulda, who wasn't exactly good or evil but rewarded in kind.
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rosyelf
Registered User
(5/16/05 11:46 am)
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baba yaga
Veronica, I'm interested that you describe Baba Yaga as ambiguous. I understood she was a cannibal who kept her garden fence adorned with skulls. Could you please point me to some of the more, well, ambiguous /positive depictions of her ? Thank you.
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(5/16/05 12:53 pm)
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Re: baba yaga
In "Vasilissa the Beautiful", after Vasilissa thwarts Baba Yaga's attempts to have her for supper, Baba Yaga gives her fire to bring to her cruel stepmother and stepsisters. This magical fire, in turn, takes vengeance upon them for being mean to Vasilissa--a good deed of sorts, in the spirit of Baba Yaga's nature.
For a truly kind Baba Yaga, you should read "Babushka Baba Yaga" by Patricia Polacco.
Best,
Alice
Edited by: AliceCEB at: 5/16/05 12:55 pm
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Sarcastic
Unregistered User
(5/16/05 6:57 pm)
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hm... another variation of Baba Yaga
There was a cartoon I've seen that had Baba Yaga (they didn't mention her by name, but it showed her in her chicken-leg house with her bone gate) actually be a nice character since the Prince called her "Grandmother" and asked her kindly how to find his froggy princess. She found him amusing and told him about how to break the wizard's spell and sent him on his way without harm.
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(5/16/05 7:44 pm)
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Re: hm... another variation of Baba Yaga
The best place to learn more about Baba Yaga is in Baba
Yaga: The Ambiguous Mother and Witch of the Russian Folktale (International
Folkloristics, V. 3) by Andreas Johns
She appears in several stories, some of which are in the two Russian fairy tale books on SurLaLune:
Russian
Wonder Tales
by Post Wheeler
Old
Peter's Russian Tales
by Arthur Ransome
Of course, there are also book lists and references available on
SurLaLune in the Annotated
Baba Yaga area although I haven't finished annotating the tale
yet.
Heidi
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Terri
Windling
Registered User
(5/17/05 8:19 am)
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Re: hm... another variation of Baba Yaga
Helen wrote a good article about Baba Yaga, looking at the dual
nature of the character both in folklore and in modern fantasy fiction:
www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrBabaYaga.html
There's a Further Reading list at the end of the article.
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Writerpatrick
Registered User
(5/17/05 9:52 am)
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Re: hm... another variation of Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga also makes an appearance in a couple of Sierra's Quest For Glory (aka Hero's Quest) games which draw from folklore and fairy tales for characters.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(5/17/05 11:33 am)
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Re: hm... another variation of Baba Yaga
Really! Now, that is fascinating ... it almost makes me
want to take up gaming. What kinds of characteristics do they ascribe
to her?
And, I'd second Heidi's recommendation of the Johns book ... it's one of the best resources that I've ever seen.
You might also consider Frau Holle, the old woman from "Diamonds and Toads," the nursemaid in "Tebaldo" as a precuser of the fairy godmother, and the ambiguity of the godmothers in "The Blue Bird," both of whom are, from their perspectives, only attempting to help their wards.
The original question is very interesting to me: I think that one possible explanation could be found in the malevolence, not only of older women, but of women in general, when they occupy a role other then that of the protagonist in fairy tales. As fairy tales (as opposed to some folktales) do not tend to feature women past the age of fertility, it creates a kind of a semi-natural framework for older women to act as villains, in light of general stereotypes concerning women. Extraneous men, too, find themselves cast as evil-doers as easily as helper-figures ... the only exceptions that I can think of, off-hand, come from either tales in which the male companions assist the hero from the outset of his journey, or where an older man offers advice (and, as I think about it, most of those tales come from Russian fairy tales, and, as likely as not, include a second bit of advice coming from a female source to balance out the first ...). Hope this helps, a bit!
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(5/17/05 6:33 pm)
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Another old woman
Also going back to the original post, I've just thought of The
Talking Eggs by Robert San Souci--a beautiful picture book
illustrated by Jerry Pinkney with a kind, elderly woman/witch as
one of the main characters. It's a retelling of a Creole folktale
where a generous girl, much abused by her mother and older sister,
finds an old woman in the woods who has two-headed cows, multicolored
chickens, is capable of removing her head, and does various bits
of magic. As a reward for helping the old woman over the course
of an afternoon and evening, the girl is given a gift of eggs that,
when thrown over her shoulder spill out beautiful clothes, a horse
and buggy, money and other wonders. When she returns home, the older
sister is sent into the woods but instead of helping the old woman,
she threatens her and forces her to give her a gift of eggs. The
sister throws these over her shoulder and gets frogs, a wolf, wasps
and other beasties that chase her and her mother. The younger sister,
of course, ends up living the rest of her life as a "grand
lady--though she remained as kind and generous as always."
Best,
Alice
Edited by: AliceCEB at: 5/17/05 6:41 pm
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shiregirl2001
Registered User
(5/18/05 12:42 am)
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Re: Another old woman
Great food for thought from all who have responded. Thanks.
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rosyelf
Registered User
(5/18/05 5:41 am)
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baba yaga, etc
Thank you to everyone, esp. those who responded to my puzzlement
over Baba Yaga. I'm off to do some reading-just for a change ! :)
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neverossa
Registered User
(5/23/05 1:37 pm)
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Old wives and Baba yaga
About good old wives Frau Holle in Grimm and in Germanic mythology is not properly "bad", even is she's dangerous, because she belongs to the other world, she's a liminal creature (like Baba Yaga). She comes from the tradition of Diana, Berchta, and that sort of ladies/goddess that lead the "wild hunt" during wintry nights: a procession of ghosts and unbaptized children and souls. Here there's a very good essay on this subject:
www.findarticles.com/p/se...ree&tb=art
One old lady that is completely good is Mother Elderberry in one of most poetic Andersen fairy tales. She represents the power of memory, she's the true spirit of story-telling, the thread that's always linking the child that listens and imagines, to the adult that tells... A curious thing is that the elderberry is a tree deeply connected to witches in folklore - sometimes an elderberry is a disguised witch... If I remember well there should be this kind of belief in the English fairy tales collected by Katherine Briggs.
Last thing on Baba Yaga: Propp found a connection between this amazing character of Russian fairy tales and the Mother of Animals of the Siberian-shamanism, a creature, again, that rules on that particular, enchanted land of no-one, the threshold between life and death... That's why Baba Yaga is both bad and good, or more simply dangerous... There's no place enough here to explain it better but if someone is interested another wonderful reading is Eliade's book on Shamanism... Historians of religions go on criticizing it and yet they mention it continuously!
Edited by: neverossa at: 5/23/05 1:39 pm
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(5/23/05 6:05 pm)
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Re: Old wives and Baba yaga
Ooh, that reminds me of another good old woman: Mother Holly in
How the Cat Swallowed Thunder
by Lloyd Alexander--a picture book. Mother Holly is a magical woman
whose everyday objects are really various forms of elemental forces:
rain, snow, wind, and of course, thunder--some of which is swallowed
by her disobedient cat.
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midori
snyder
Registered User
(5/24/05 9:04 am)
ezSupporter
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Strega Nona
Tommie de Paoli does his rift on the old woman/ witch with his wonderful tales of Strega Nona. She's certainly powerful, but in an instructive and charming fashion. It's her muddle-headed apprentice who's the problem.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(5/24/05 10:17 pm)
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good older women
I just picked up a collection of folktales edited by Kathleen Ragan that are all tales with strong women. It's called Fearless Girls, Wise Women, and Beloved Sisters. Lovely work- tales illustrating the complex roles of women in folklore. Also, in much Native American mythos, an older woman usually represents the moon, the earth, and/or wisdom. Depending on the source and the type of story, of course.
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