|
Author
|
Comment
|
Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/23/05 7:06 am)
|
Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Someone forwarded this story to me this a.m. I haven't tracked down the study mentioned in it yet (I haven't even had coffee yet) but thought it might be of interest.
Fairy
Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
|
janeyolen
Registered User
(4/23/05 8:40 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
A friend sent that to me, too. I am not convinced!
Jane
|
darklingthrush
Registered User
(4/23/05 8:48 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
I'm not either. They are certainly only looking at one variable in what would seem to me to be very uncontrolled studies. They don't mention other fairy tales or whether these are the Disney princess variety of fairy tales. They don't account for educational variances, economic background. As someone who loved fairy tales as a child and considers herself very happily married, I'm more than a bit affronted by this study.
But then I'm that bookseller who is always trying to talk parents
into buying Lon
Po Po rather than the Disney Princess collection for their 4
year old fairy tale lover.
This article/study bothers me on so many levels.
|
Writerpatrick
Registered User
(4/23/05 9:04 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
I think they're confusing the symptom with the cause. Fairy tales are often re-written to reflect the ideology of the times. By the same logic, rock and roll is responsible for drugs and crime.
|
Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/23/05 9:06 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
It's a frustrating little article, since it reveals so little of the data from the study. I want to know who she interviewed, which tales she's working with (if you use the term "classic fairy tales," shouldn't you define it?), and what the parameters are. I also wonder if the person conducting the study is aware that this isn't really a new or innovative concern (though perhaps it is more so in psychology?).
It reminded me a little of a past discussion of Disney's "Beauty and the Beast," though. Which also made me wonder what variants and versions of tales the study works with.
Best,
Erica
|
cwfaerie
Registered User
(4/23/05 9:15 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Here's a link to the University of Derby's press release. While it doesn't answer the questions raised here, it does give a little more info.
www.derby.ac.uk/press-off...asp?ID=696
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/23/05 3:11 pm)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
>> A friend sent that to me, too. I am not convinced!<<
At last we agree on something--
Somebody seemed to be leaping on the "Anger-based Research" gravy train...
As mentioned in another thread, the whole "cheap symbol" (Disney, princess, happy ending, or "deluded innocence of childhood") aspect of over-familiarized fairytales tends to make them tantalizingly universal inflatable punching bags for those who'd rather punch bags than look in mirrors. (Or do nasty old research, where findings might actually contradict our Angry Ol' Rant)...
Tales, of course, having that one appealing aspect of all punching bags, ie. their inability to hit back.
(Not that some, ahem, authors don't fall victim to the siren lure
of revisionist-bashing too, of course...) :p
|
Don
Registered User
(4/23/05 6:49 pm)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
I'm curious--has anyone read the actual study and not just the Yahoo news article or the university's press release?
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/23/05 8:42 pm)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Leaving the philosophical question aside, realistically, what great leap of credibility are you hoping to find?...
|
Jess
Unregistered User
(4/23/05 9:48 pm)
|
Ah....but
how many well-adjusted, happily married and/or successful career women (i.e., most women I know) also read fairy tales? My guess is that many if not all of them were fans at one time or another. This doesn't sound very scientific to me. I agree with Don, let's see the whole study.
Jess
|
Daniel
Unregistered User
(4/24/05 1:30 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
I noticed a news article in the British paper "The Guardian" (Not so happily ever after,Saturday April 23) referring to this. Susan Darker-Smith's theory is apparently to be delivered to the international congress of cognitive psychotherapy in Gothenburg.
The article quotes Darker-Smith as saying :"they[children who read fairy tales] might never have understood the obvious flaw in the story of Rapunzel, who remained locked in a high tower until rescued by a knight on a white horse, who broke the door down. The question, said Ms Darker-Smith, is why she did not break the door down herself."
I think this is where Darker-Smith's argument begins to fall apart. In Rapunzel there is, of course, no door or staircase to the tower, thus preventing the heroine's escape. The hero of the tale (who is described by the Brothers Grimm as a king's son, not a Knight) accesses the tower by climbing up Rapunzel's long flaxen braid of hair, as I am sure everybody at SurLaLune knows. And the hero does not "rescue" Rapunzel; she "rescues" him by replenishing his sight with her tears after he has been blinded by the witch. I suspect that Darker- Smith hasn't even read the tale properly.
|
Don
Registered User
(4/24/05 6:56 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
"Leaving the philosophical question aside, realistically, what great leap of credibility are you hoping to find?..."
I'm not looking for a leap of credibility. In fact, I'd like to actually look before I leap--before leaping in any direction. I'd like to look at the evidence, that is. I'd like to assess the study's--not the press release's--credibility. Just want to do some of the "nasty old research, where findings might actually" be judged after a consideration of the actual data, evidence, and specific arguments the press release only summarizes.
Edited by: Don at: 4/24/05 7:15 am
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/24/05 11:48 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Sorry, thought you were defending it-- :)
As it is, there hasn't been much press coverage of Darker-Smith's ideas beyond the already-quoted "Rapunzel" goof, but, as noted, that speaks volumes...
That, and a "Why can't heroines be more like Hermione from 'Harry Potter'?" quote, which also hints at the level of deep Grimm/Andersen research the author has been taking on before charging ahead with the point.
|
Don
Registered User
(4/24/05 12:30 pm)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Well, whether defending or attacking the research, one still needs to have looked at and given it a fair shake. So the question would hold in either case.
As for the quotations--the quoted statements about Rapunzel and Harry Potter attributed to Darker-Smith here don't actually appear as direct quotations in the Guardian article. When the article does quote her directly, she's careful to qualify her hypothesis ("may make women believe"); and, according to the article, she ackowledges the limitations of her sample. It's not clear to me whether Prof. Reynold's satement at the end of the Guardian article--"It is far too simplistic to say that girls who grow up reading fairytales with submissive characters will themselves become submissive"--is based on her having read the research or simply having responded to a reporter's characterization of the research. But based on what Darker-Smith is quoted as saying, it may not be so simple.
Given the paucity of empirical research on a topic that has generated decades of argument and about which everybody has an opinion, it seems to me that news of study like this--that seems at best to suggest the need for more work--ought to provoke curiosity and not outright dismissal, sight unseen. The question motivating her research is certainly defensible even if some like Reynolds might be weary of it.
Edited by: Don at: 4/24/05 12:59 pm
|
KathieRose
Unregistered User
(4/24/05 9:47 pm)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
<<<In fact, I'd like to actually look before I leap--before leaping in any direction. I'd like to look at the evidence, that is. I'd like to assess the study's--not the press release's--credibility. Just want to do some of the "nasty old research, where findings might actually" be judged after a consideration of the actual data, evidence, and specific arguments the press release only summarizes. >>>
I so agree with you, Don. And I've just spent a couple of hours trying to track down at least an abstract of her study. Darker-Smith is supposedly presenting this paper at the International Congress of Cognitive Psychotherapy held in Sweden in June [keyword ICCP2005] but I couldn't even find that on their site [though she is giving two other papers as well]. But I also would want to read the original study before reaching any conclusions. There are SO MANY really BAD psychological research studies out there [I was trained in research methods originally and have read a LOT of professional psych journals] and I wouldn't trust a press release to represent even a good study, frankly. Plus the Yahoo version doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, although there ARE abstracts of the ICCP's presentations, they aren't listed on the website-- maybe after the conference is over? At any rate, the paper isn't published yet or I think it'd be available on the Search.edu search engine and that turned up nothing too........seems irresponsible, to me, to do a newspaper story of something not published but......
|
AliceCEB
Registered User
(4/25/05 7:30 am)
|
Re: Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Sigh. I hate these kinds of press releases--for most of the reasons already said. But my gut just reels at the conjecture that "this generation" won't be as affected because they watch more TV. First, TV has saturated childhood since the 1960s--a huge proportion, if not majority, of adults currently in abusive situations were weaned on it. Second, has she taken a look at what's on?
This kind of absurd conjecture makes me wonder how seriously she's really thought about the issue. Abuse is a worldwide problem: has she compared the rates of abuse in the UK with Asian countries, or African, or even Norway for goodness sakes. It's certainly not linked to having been read Cinderella or Rapunzel since abuse predates the tales and is rampant in non-literate societies--or is she claiming something else (but there I'm off without enough information).
Grr.
Best,
Alice
|
Daniel
Unregistered User
(5/2/05 8:26 am)
|
Re:Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
An article concerning Susan Darker-Smith's study, by the journalist
Lucy Mangan appeared in "The Guardian" today (Happily
never after,2nd May). Unfortunately I am unable to set up a direct
link, but the article can be found at www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,1474614,00.html
I still haven't read Darker-Smith's study for myself, but I am in full agreement with Mangan and the three academics she interviews:Marina Warner, Dr Pam Knights of Durham University and Deborah Cameron of Oxford University.
|
Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(5/2/05 2:32 pm)
|
Re: Re:Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
The Guardian url
www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,1474614,00.html
got a Guardian 'can't serve' error. I'll wait for the actual study to be published, or some non-journalistic account of it. But I can't resist a few comments.
The Rapunzel goof sounds more like a journalist's error than a serious reseacher's. I'd bet it was a journalistic mare's nest, or the researcher gave some long qualified statement about some obscure version of 'Rapunzel' and the journalist or some news editor over-condensed it.
As to 'linked to' -- a study would probably show bandaids and aspirin linked to violent relationships, but the question would remain, which caused which, or were they both effects of a common cause.
The term 'classic fairy tales' could use defining; but some such set seems worth defining and talking about. In our society, there really is a set (perhaps with fuzzy borders) of stories of which everyone, even illiterates, know at least a basic plot or theme.
A frequent theme is a young person escaping from an abusive situation of origin -- into an idealized marriage with the first royal suitor who turns up. Regardless of what they read, abused children are at risk for later choosing abusive mates. A child in an abusive home might be more attracted to such stories (aspirin and bandaids) -- and those stories might put her even more at risk for making, and staying in, a hasty ill-advised marriage (and for 'love at first sight').
Another theme (I'd have to check whether they occur together) is extreme loyalty to the first associate who turns up, often in spite of his odd behavior or appearance. IE, 'high tolerance for inappropriate behavior', a symptom (and risk factor) for abusive or dysfunctional relationships.
Still, the themes of escaping a harsh environment, and of loyalty
to the first companion who shows up -- are not limited to fairy
tales. Unlikely companions having to cooperate against a harsh situation
-- is a theme of M*A*S*H, survivor movies, cop or lawyer dramas....
:)
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 5/2/05 3:17 pm
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(5/2/05 3:19 pm)
|
Re:Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
>>The Rapunzel goof sounds more like a journalist's error than a serious reseacher's. I'd bet it was a journalistic mare's nest, or the researcher gave some long qualified statement about some obscure version of 'Rapunzel' and the journalist or some news editor over-condensed it.<<
Er, I dunnoooo, given the rest of the published rant, that slip-up
sounded a little too Freudian on Susan's part:
The surface "Golden-coiffed princess in tower, and prince who
arrives" trappings of the story been played up a lot in princess-marketing
recently, via Disney and Barbie, and the otherwise apparent lack
of independent action on the character's part would make it seem
a delicious, trendy, and readily oversymbolic target for grudge-beaters
without much effort expended...
Which, as other comments about the lack of deeper research have speculated, would certainly include Susan--And I don't believe anyone yet here was accusing her of being a "serious" researcher.
As noted, it's only when you scratch the surface that you realize there's very little in the actual text that is dreamy, "romantic" or dependent, and that's a trap for the grudge-beaters to find their feet stuck in.
|
Daniel
Unregistered User
(5/2/05 6:39 pm)
|
Re:Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
My apologies, Rosemary and anyone else who tried to type in the web address I gave. You can still access the article by going to www.guardian.co.uk and typing "Happily never after" into the search engine in the top left hand side of the web-page. Alternatively you could use a search engine such as Google and type in "Happily never after Lucy Mangan". Post back on this discussion thread if you have any further problems finding the article.
|
Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(5/2/05 8:29 pm)
|
Re: Re:Fairy Tales Linked to Violent Relationships
Thanks, found it Mangan's piece. Maybe one of these will work. tinyurl.com/9jf23
or
www.guardian.co.uk/g2/sto...14,00.html
According to an earlier Guardian article, by John Carvel, social
affairs editor, Saturday April 23, 2005, Ms Darker-Smith was comparing
women who had identified with the submissive characters -- vs those
who had heard the stories but not identified with them. tinyurl.com/97rdo
or www.guardian.co.uk/uk_new...59,00.html
"Ms Darker-Smith looked further into the differences between the groups and found the abused women were much more likely to identify with Cinderella and other submissive female characters in fairytales, who were later rescued by a strong prince or hero. Although most girls heard the stories, damage appeared to be done to those who adopted the submissive characters as role models."
Always assuming Carvel got it right either, Mangan and other critics seem to ignore this, and accuse D-S of saying that all fairy tales are bad for all children at all times, or at least the tales were bad for every girl who heard them, or every girl who enjoyed them for any reason.
I suppose the moral is, that D-S should have put up her own website or blog or something (or her whole paper) before any press release went out.
Anyway, it sounds like what D-S was studying was the effect of the versions told to (or remembered by) the abused women in her sampling. So it might be interesting to find which versions their parents had given them, etc -- but the versions they got is what she was researching, not some past century versions, or 'fairy tales' in general.
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 5/2/05 8:46 pm
|
|
