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Author
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Comment
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cmoore0013
Unregistered User
(4/9/05 10:44 am)
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Offending
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I'm really sorry. Believe me, that's never what I want to do. I just word things badly.
I do have to say that every version of Snow White makes her out to be very passive. I'm actually pretty sure that even a smart 7 year old could see through the queen's cheap disquises(at least the first 2).
I like the idea of seeing Cinderella in another light. I've never though of her as a temptress who would do this. It does give a motivation for the stepmother to lock her away from the world. Mabye before she became a slave, she was a little slutty and was sleeping with every man in town and that cause for some order from her stepmother.
Now, when I look at every character in folklore, they are usually paper thin. I think it's just the charms of fairy tales, though. We get to use our imaginations to make them whatever we want.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/9/05 10:57 am)
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Re: Offending
The idea of "righteous discipline" really is interesting, and one which I haven't seen before: one take which I really love is the idea of the stepmother taking action on her stepmother's behalf, but even then (as in one of Tanith Lee's *other* takes on Cinderella in "The Reason For Not Going to the Ball," in which she writes an epistolary story from the stepmother's point of view explaing the reasons for disguising her, which include the predatory motivations of both the father and the prince), it's rarely motivated by actual wrongdoing on the heroine's part. I don't really subscribe to the idea of "sluttiness" myself (so long as it's all consensual ... no damage done, yes? not to mention the lack of such epithets as addressed to promiscuous males), but some initial wrongdoing on Cinderella's part really does complicate the narrative in an interesting fashion.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/9/05 11:12 am)
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Re: Offending
I guess I've always interpreted Snow's "inability" to
see through her (step)mother's disguises in one of two ways. When
I was kid I thought it was because the Queen was a witch and was
able to disguise herself with magic. Now I like to think of it as
a kind of subconscious longing to be with her mother again. Tanith
Lee works that interpretation out beautifully in White as Snow,
which, no surprise, is my favorite revision of the tale. So I've
never really thought of Snow as stupid, just fooled (on the one
hand) or wanting her mum.
And, no worries, cmoore. 'Sokay.
And...Cinderella? I got nothin'
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 4/9/05 11:18 am
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(4/9/05 1:10 pm)
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Re: Offending
Evil cinderella being shut in to protect the world--I love it! It reminds me of Neil Gaiman's Snow, Glass, Apples where the stepmother/queen is trying to protect the world from a vampire-like Snow White by cutting out her heart and feeding her poisoned apples. I've never thought of Snow White in the same way again.
Best,
Alice
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Don
Registered User
(4/9/05 1:23 pm)
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Veere-ily I say unto you
Having been away from the board for a week, I slip a bit warily into the glass slipper discussion. I stumbled over the allusion to the "translation mistake that was picked up by the ages." In fact, French folklorist Paul Delarue long ago (1951) refuted the myth that there was any mistake in Perrault's use of verre (glass) instead of vair (fur), or that the glass slipper is a mistake in translation. An English version of Delarue's brief note can be found in Cinderella: A Casebook, edited by Dundes.
But I tread cautiously, lest I've misunderstood the intent of the allusion and have tripped up on the slipper.
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/9/05 1:58 pm)
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Re: Cinderella
>> "Really? Looked like a string of cheap standup jokes (which cmoore already complained about), to me."
Okay, I'm sorry, but ... are you kidding? Your style of argumentation really is getting to be disrespectful to the point of unacceptability. <<
It was not meant in glib humor, but rather to illustrate the far edge of cmoore's point about critics who "gleefully" use familiar fairytales as universal social punching bags without bothering to look past their own views at the specific context of the story (a point I much agreed with, and felt she summarized better than I could)--
And used avalondeb's equally glib post, which I'd considered was meant more in showoff "tasteless" attempt at satire/humor than in seriously meant discussion, as an example of just how far the "punching-bag" critics can often reach, and with rather fuzzy or missing research on the actual details that would support their points.
That it was absorbed by other posters as some actual discussion
topic I'd felt was a bit overgenerous on some serious board members'
parts, and wanted to get back to the topic of what actual facts
Av's "theory" (if we were now calling it that) had gotten,
well, wrong.
It takes more education to defend the "undefendable", than to tear down the familiar.
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/9/05 2:28 pm)
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Re: Cinderella
>>Regarding the vair/verre descrepency: well, yes, it is an interesting shift, interpretation-wise (particularly if one is interested in addressing the membranous qualities of the shoe as opposed to the earthier ones surrounding fur, or, as in "Yeh-hsien," the materialistic or purity issues surrounding gold), but I really don't quite see how the idea of glass relates to the unique nature of the fit ...<<
Well, again, that's using the shoe as "Goodness will out" metaphor for Cindy being the prince's "one true fit"--
An ermine slipper is elegant, but would slip on easily, and something one might actually wear in the real world...
But a slipper of glass, or gold, or diamond, or iron--and which,
we assume, the magical intervention had engraved to be worn by only
one unique set of feet--not only has an otherworldly quality,
but makes itself the chosen-one Gordian Knot or Excalibur test that
fairytales require...And for which even being coldhearted and mercenary
enough to cut your own heels and toes just to fool yourself and
others into thinking that you are the "true" owner of
the worthy qualities will still not pass muster in the end.
And metaphorically speaking, it wasn't the shoe the Prince
was searching for...
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sara
lindsey
Registered User
(4/9/05 3:05 pm)
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Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
It doesn't get mentioned too often on this board, but I think that
Kissing the Witch is one of the most amazing books ever
written, but Emma Donoghue's story - I think it's "The Tale
of the Shoe" - has Cinderella doing menial labor as self-inflicted
punishment. I don't have my book with me at school and I haven't
reread it in a while so I may be a little off, but I think she feels
guilty about her mother's death... I don't really remember whether
Donoghue follows the Perrault or the Grimm storyline, but I know
that Cinderella (like the Cinderella in Into the Woods) realizes
that palace life isn't all it's cracked up to be. Donoghue's book
also has a strong lesbian element - although I was too young to
pick up on it the first time I read it - which is certainly relevant
to this day and age.
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cmoore0013
Unregistered User
(4/10/05 12:54 am)
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Snow White
When I was achild, I too thought the queen used magic for herself to fool Snow. I guess it was because I had seen the Disney version where she really does use magic to turn herself into the crone. The text now reads that she just "painted her face". obvious to poor little Snow.
My favorite film version which is the Cannon Movie Tales version has this element. The queen first puts on a black wig and grypsy clothes, earrings, the whole deal. She however does not change her face at all except add a fake beauty mark.
For the second, she disquises herself the best, as a Chinese woman selling combs. She paints her face white and wears a wig and getup that looks like a geysha girl.
The last is an odd one. You can tell it's the queen, but she looks more aged. She must have put on some orange or brown makeup.
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avalondeb
Registered User
(4/10/05 8:52 am)
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Re: Snow White
<< And used avalondeb's equally glib post, which I'd considered was meant more in showoff "tasteless" attempt at satire/humor than in seriously meant discussion, as an example of just how far the "punching-bag" critics can often reach, and with rather fuzzy or missing research on the actual details that would support their points.
That it was absorbed by other posters as some actual discussion topic I'd felt was a bit overgenerous on some serious board members' parts, and wanted to get back to the topic of what actual facts Av's "theory" (if we were now calling it that) had gotten, well, wrong.
It takes more education to defend the "undefendable", than to tear down the familiar. >>
No, I didn't mean my post as satire. I really considered that Cinderella might have originally been a pagan. The reason I worded my post a bit "glibly" is that I didn't want to insult anyone here that practices Wicca or might be a pagan. I figured that if I stated my opinions of a Pagan Cinderella in a strong manner, I might offend someone.
Also, I specifically stated that I wasn't talking about a "fractured fairytale", meaning a comedy. That should have been enough for anyone to understand what I meant. Maybe I should have been more specific that my post wasn't meant to be viewed as comedic but serious.
Back to the topic of a Pagan Cinderella....
I first thought about it after seeing "Into The Woods" when it was on Broadway in the late 80's/early 90's. During the play Cinderella speaks to a spirit who lives in a tree. I remember sitting there, shocked at the concept of Cinderella involved tree worship. I had all types of images of Druids, dryads, and wood nymphs floating through my head for days afterward.
I did read Tanith Lee's short story years ago, and that reinforced the whole concept that perhaps Cinderella was practicing witchcraft in my mind.
I am not relying on "fuzzy of missing research". It was an IDEA. I wanted to know if anyone else had thought along the same lines.
I sincerely meant to throw out the concept for serious discussion of the possibility that one of the original versions of Cinderella might have stemmed from a very different source - the attempts of non-Christians to make their way in an increasingly Christian environment. To me it wouldn't seem impossible for someone seeing their culture and/or religious beliefs being systematically destroyed looking to work his/her way into a position of power to salvage some part of their way of life.
By the way - I too greatly resent the tone of a poster here. However, I would like to apologize if my previous post was viewed in anyway as minimizing a serious discussion. It wasn't intended that way.
Edited by: avalondeb at: 4/10/05 9:36 am
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Terri
Windling
Registered User
(4/10/05 10:43 am)
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Re: Snow White
Folks, let's please do as our moderator asked, cease responding to inflamatory posts, and stick to the more interesting subject of Cinderella.
Avalondeb, the oldest known versions of Cinderella come from 9th century China, where the Christian/pagan dynamic would not have played a part in the story's origins. However, storytellers through the centuries have shaped their re-tellings of fairy tales in order to express their own concerns and those of their society -- so it's certainly not impossible that a European pagan storyteller would imbue his or her re-telling of Cinderella with a pagan subtext, particularly during times in history when it was forbidden to discuss such things outright.
Changing the subject just a little, some of my favorite modern versions
of Cinderella come in the form of poetry, such as Jane Yolen's poem
"Knives" from Cinderella's point of view (www.endicott-studio.com/cofhs/chKnives.html),
Emma Bull's poignant look at "The Stepsister's Story"
(www.endicott-studio.com/cofhs/cofstep.html),
and Enid Dame's exploration of the good mother/bad mother split
in "Cinderella" (from Anything You Don't See,
and reprinted in The Poets' Grimm).
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/10/05 11:06 am)
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Re: Snow White
Avalondeb:
I thought it an interesting suggestion, myself (and, as a practicing
pagan, and one who was just recently told that a friend's significant
other disliked me for fear that I might "do something"
[ in this day and age, *boggle*], took no offense from your phrasing).
There are definitely trace elements of paganism in some of the older
variants: Seznec's The Survival of the Pagan Gods references
this idea, somewhat. The possible druidic influences behind the
possession of, specifically, as you point out, the hazel tree and
not the family ox (as in other, more northern versions, for example)
points towards an interweaving of themes. Of course, as Terri points
out, the tale is based in a polytheistic system of beliefs ... but
the adaptation of those beliefs to reflect existing ideas of "magic"
without wholly consigning the heroine to perdition shows an interesting
level of acceptence on the part of the Christian community for old
"superstitions." One very interesting source of the development
of old beliefs, for me, comes in what we can, in some ways, consider
the "source material" for the first literary fairy tales:
the medieval lais and legends, as in the depictions of Morgan le
Fey in the Vita Merlini (as a benevolent goddess), or as
in Yonec, when a shapeshifter/magician is shown to be capable
of interacting with a priest. It certainly makes one wonder what
the medieval versions of Cinderella from the oral tradition might
have looked like ...
Best,
Helen
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/10/05 12:29 pm)
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Re: Snow White
>>I first thought about it after seeing "Into The Woods" when it was on Broadway in the late 80's/early 90's. During the play Cinderella speaks to a spirit who lives in a tree. I remember sitting there, shocked at the concept of Cinderella involved tree worship. I had all types of images of Druids, dryads, and wood nymphs floating through my head for days afterward.<<
To be Wiccan-attracted by "Wow, Cinderella and the tree", is to forget why she's at the tree at all, and why she's the only one--Her mother is buried there. (Or so we're led to believe; some versions mention it, some don't.)
So is everything else of her old life...Love, understanding, family acceptance, and good-returned-for-good, as it "should be" in the world. Even her gifts.
And while sourcing "Into the Woods" for the Perrault "tree"
version, we also see the version of the story where the ball lasts
three nights, and Cindy is clearly not "in control":
She attends each of the three nights in her tree/bird-given reward-dress, escaping at twelve each night, fearing that her "lie" would be exposed--
And only when the Prince finally tries to prevent the third and final escape with pitch on the steps does he get a stuck shoe for his reward, and the Magical Test therein...
(Didn't mean to be too harsh, just thought the story needed a little
closer look for backup--The theory has to fit the evidence, not
vice versa.)
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avalondeb
Registered User
(4/10/05 4:52 pm)
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Re: Re: Snow White
Dear Terri and Helen:
Thanks for your replies. I see what you are talking about. The first origins wouldn't have had much to do with European pagan beliefs. But I was glad that you saw what I meant with the interweaving of some pagan elements in the story. I see now that I was off base when it comes to the original story being pagan in orgin. Thanks again for your thoughts.
Derek, I'm glad that you didn't mean to offend. Sometimes tone of voice is hard to dicipher online. And I have to agree that you made some good points against my supposition.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(4/10/05 10:36 pm)
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Ever After
To La Reine Noire- I would like to point out that the 1500's are
the 16th century, not the 17th as I stated in my post. Also, the
original Mona Lisa is painted on wood, not canvas, rather precluding
it being rolled into a tube. I know Leo spent a brief time in France,
but I still think the movie (though I loved it) was incorrect to
portray him the way it did. Don't get me wrong- I enjoyed it; I
just think it was a little sloppy. Of course, considering how lots
of storylines deviate wildly from any actual history, I should be
grateful they gave him a painting he actually did. Rather than "Venus
Rising" for example.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/11/05 3:03 am)
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Re: Ever After
Really? The Mona Lisa was painted on wood? Wow. You learn something new every day. At least I do.
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sara
lindsey
Registered User
(4/11/05 12:33 pm)
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Re: Ever After
Yep - the Mona Lisa was painted on a thin panel of poplar wood and it was actually sold to Francois I.
Here's a pretty interesting article for Ever After lovers: "Saving
Cinderella": History and Story in Ashpet and Ever After.
There's also a neat book I found in my school library, but it can be special ordered through Amazon. It has some gorgeous pictures!
Cinderella the Shoe Rediscovered by Stefania Ricci. Ed,
Italy) Museo Salvatore Ferragamo (Florence, Stefania Ricci (Editor).
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rbrown10
Unregistered User
(4/13/05 9:23 am)
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ciderella
I think it's because it's what every one dreams about. Everyone wants to be rescued and have a perfect life.
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rbrown10
Unregistered User
(4/13/05 9:36 am)
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cinderella
I think people want to live a cinderella story.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(4/13/05 10:02 pm)
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wooden Mona Lisa
To Veronica- I got that tidbit from my 10th grade humanities teacher, the incomparable Mr. Harriss. Also, Leo painted somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 12 Monas. Perhaps as studies, though some scholars present the radical (and interesting) notion that he painted so many because the Mona Lisa is actually a feminized self-portrait. I've seen some compelling arguments to support the idea, but I don't see it myself. The fact that she's painted on wood is part of why the theft of the painting in 1911(?) was so problematic to the thief. Apparently, he didn't realize and almost destroyed her in his efforts to get her out of the frame. He was eventually caught several years later when he tried to sell the painting to the Italian government. His reason for stealing her was that she was a work by an Italian master and never should have left Italy. So he was really just a patriot, not a thief at all.
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