|
Author
|
Comment
|
reena1509
Unregistered User
(4/5/05 12:49 pm)
|
Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairytale
Hiya, I'm currently writing my dissertation on the meaning and importance of fairytales in society by examining the specific case study of Cinderella!
Wondered if anyone has got any suggestions or general comments on Cinderella?
Specifically looking for answers to:
- What do you think the reasons are that Cinderella is extremely popular today?
- how relevant is Cinderella to everyday life in the twenty first century?
But any comments would be great.
Thankyou to anyone who replies!
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/5/05 1:08 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
One trap that's usually a test-stone for revealing how people interpret
it is that little smartypants question of "Show me just exactly
where in Perrault it says the Stepsisters were 'ugly'..."
"Vain", yes, "wicked" possibly, and the most physical description we get is that the sisters "couldn't compare" to Cindy, but that's too relative a term--
And yet the tradition of portraying them as gawky, self-deluding buffoons (just to make them more "hatable" and Cindy more "sympathetic") goes back a few hundred years, even to the point of having them played by men in the operas and ballets.
But if you take the text as written, and consider the Stepsisters
as possibly rich Alpha supermodel divas (and who of us doesn't
hate those?), what is the story now about?
If the tale were a makeover story about shallow appearances and having the right shoes, they would still obviously have the advantage, but as we see, they don't...
|
Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/5/05 3:07 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
Since there are so many variants of the folktale "Cinderella,"
it might be helpful to read around and choose one or two of them.
Are you working with the Perrault? The Grimm? The Italian? The "Similar
Tales Across Cultures" link on the annotated Cinderella page
on the SurLaLune site is a good place to start. If you're working
with children's lit., you might want to check out Margaret Read
McDonald's The Storyteller's Sourcebook. And, you probably
already know of this one, but Jane Yolen's "American Cinderella"
is an excellent read.
"Cinderella" isn't high on my personal list of favorite tales, but my own theory is that America loves a good make-over (now, we even have them with plastic surgery!), and the sudden (and sometimes magical) change from drudge to "pretty as a princess" is a pretty good, dramatic make-over.
Erica
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/5/05 3:25 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
Ah, but that was exactly my point: It's not an
"Extreme Makeover" story--
(And interesting social discussion fodder about why everyone is
so neurotically convinced it is...)
What most seem to get so hung up on is the fact that some deus-ex-machina "fairy godmother" comes in to give Cindy some help--Which, of course, was a Protestant English rewrite/invention to cover up the "religious" elements once the tale left France:
In the original French sources, Cindy is the only one to still remember her late mother, "waters the tree with her tears", and is kind to the birds, which we get the distinct impression the Sisters are not...
As a result, the birds help Cindy at every point, and she mysteriously
finds the dress and other strategically useful accoutrements in
the trees. As a gift from Someone.
Suggesting that "earning" help is slightly better than being handed it out of the blue--
And that perhaps Image isn't Everything, seeing as how
the Prince still manages to find that, out of the entire kingdom,
Cindy was the one right "fit", even in rags and without
the prom dress.
|
Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/5/05 3:42 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
Actually, I think that looking at the story as only a make-over is a very shallow reading. But I also think that this reading is what makes Cinderella popular right now. Sucks, because it overshadows the mother-daughter connection and Ashputtle's own resourcefulness. If I could find any evidence that Cinderella is popular because of these non-make-over elements, I would be most happy. But I don't think it'll happen.
Erica
|
Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/5/05 4:18 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
I think Cinderella also appeals to the "even though you treat me like a drudge/make me do the dishes/abuse me/nag me NOW, secretly I'm a VERY IMPORTANT PERSON and some day you'll find out and then YOU'LL ALL BE SORRY" fantasy. Why it should appeal now more than, say, 70 years ago, I don't know.
|
Writerpatrick
Registered User
(4/5/05 4:30 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
If you're going to look at Cinderella then you should look at the many variations of the story. As I understand it, the story originated with an oriental version. I've seen a movie version where a tree growing over a mother's grave replaced the fairy godmother. There's a version of the story called "Sapsorrow" in Jim Henson's Storyteller series. And I think the complete Grimm's has a few variations on the story.
|
Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/5/05 5:00 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
Derek: A genuinely smart person would point out to you that Perrault never said ugly, or vain, or wicked, or couldn't compare, or any of your inaccurate "quotes" because he wasn't writing in English.
Gender-bending in theatre is an anarchic "carnival" tradition and has nothing to do with your incorrect assumption that gender-benders are seen as uglier than gender stereotypes. The pantomime's handsome prince is usually a gender-bender too.
Your One True Way behaviour on this board is beginning to make you appear foolish to say the least. As Writerpatrick has pointed out, academic experts believe Cinderella type tales originated in China not with your preferred example of Perrault and we all know there are dozens of variants.
I grew up on Cap o' Rushes and I've never understood why British parents swapped their traditionally smart heroine for obedient pretty Cinders.
Reena: For your question about the tale now I suggest you read the retelling called "Ugly Sister" in Joanne Harries short story collection "Jigs and Reels".
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/5/05 7:30 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
>>A genuinely smart person would point out to you that Perrault never said ugly, or vain, or wicked, or couldn't compare, or any of your inaccurate "quotes" because he wasn't writing in English.<<
Yuk, yuk.
An even smarter person would follow up with at least a good reference Lang translation, where it doesn't appear either. Anyway, though--
>>Gender-bending in theatre is an anarchic "carnival" tradition and has nothing to do with your incorrect assumption that gender-benders are seen as uglier than gender stereotypes. The pantomime's handsome prince is usually a gender-bender too.<<
Er, was referring more to the concept of why the sisters, even if
female, have to be shown as "ugly" at all--Eg.
the Disney monstrosities, or Rodgers & Hammerstein's knee-creakers:
Maybe it's useful to generate some humorous low-comedy stage business about the sisters' frantic image-conscious vanity, gives some useful plot excuses to order Cindy about, or emphasizes their wanting to marry the prince for pure social-climbing...
But it only reinforces an idea that we're meant to sympathize with Cindy on an "You'll see I'm better than you!" level of Veronica's theory, which, if true, would be beneath the character's generous nature--
No matter how the playwright or screenwriter feels about Cindy's situation, her own sense of virtue wants to give her step-siblings the benefit of considering them as "family", and she is mistreated as a reward.
At some heart of the story, the focus is on "When bad things
happen to good people". And the only way to make such a situation
seem insurmountable is to give the Bad People all the advantages,
of looks, money, influence and the cool cars--Ah, but that there's
one thing they don't have, in the end...
(And there's certainly no conflict to the story in the first place, if we have two minor-league sisters who couldn't have a hope of swiping the prince away under their own power.)
|
Crceres
Registered User
(4/5/05 9:50 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
My understanding of fairy tales in general is that prettiness equates to goodness ("she was as good as she was pretty") as a sort of storyteller shorthand. Whether that's a shallow device or an excusable tradition can be debated (and has been, endlessly). And not all versions cast the sisters as ugly--the movie Ever After has a pretty blond as the more wicked of the two step-sisters. Then there's Tepper's interpretation in Beauty, where Ella is an enchanting beauty but also cruel and merciless.
But to get to the original questions: Cinderella is the classic rags-to-riches story, and I agree with Veronica that there is the element of "I may seem poor but really I'm very important," which has to be vastly appealing to anyone feeling mistreated. And Derek, who pointed out the theme "when bad things happen to good people."
Could part of the story's popularity be attributed to America considering itself the 'land of opportunity'? Years of immigrant success stories have given the rags-to-riches plot a special sheen, with Perrault's version being the least bloody to hand out to children. And unlike Cap-o-rushes or many other variations, Cinderella does not start out as a princess. Between disobeying her (oppressive) orders and passing a pumpkin off as a coach, she almost qualifies as trickster figure, doesn't she? That may be going out on a limb, but the story does have a subversive streak.
|
Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/6/05 3:21 am)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the fairyta
She doesn't start out as a princess, but she does start out wealthy, does she not? As the daughter of the merchant and all.
|
Lizzie
Registered User
(4/6/05 12:42 pm)
|
importance and popularity
Yes she most certainly does. She was a rich merchant's daughter. Cinderella is not a makeover story its about riches regaines. Just read Terri's essay at the Endicott studio (fantastic).
Something else to think about is the inherent desire in the story. What is it that Cinderella wants? Yes there are a lot of versions where she pulls herself up by her bootstraps, but if we look intently at the fairy godmother and the prince I think we can see the very human need for help.
Yes it's easy to say she's a victimized woman who makes girls think they need a man to rescue them, but at the same time individuals (male and female) at some point in their lives find it very appealing to fantasize about someone coming and making everything all better. And that's what I think appeals to generation upon generation.
|
reena1509
Unregistered User
(4/6/05 12:54 pm)
|
Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
The particular version of Cinderella I am concentrating on is Charles Perrault's 17th century version. I chose this one primarily because it is the version that Walt Disney adapted for the 1950 film release. Although I know it is only one variant of Cinderella, I have argued that Walt Disney's film is universally the most popular form of the text.
What do you guys think of Perrault's version of Cinderella?
My disseration explores in chapters Perraults version of Cinderella in relation to feminism, psychoanalysis and narrative structure. So any advice or reading suggestions on these areas would be great.
I also have a section investigating film adaptations. The films I have chosen to look at is Cinderella (walt disney 1950), Pretty Woman (early 90's) and A Cinderella Story (2004) so any comments on this would be most appreciated too.
Thanks to everyone who has replied so far!
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/6/05 3:05 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
>>The particular version of Cinderella I am concentrating on is Charles Perrault's 17th century version. I chose this one primarily because it is the version that Walt Disney adapted for the 1950 film release. Although I know it is only one variant of Cinderella, I have argued that Walt Disney's film is universally the most popular form of the text.
I also have a section investigating film adaptations. The films I have chosen to look at is Cinderella (walt disney 1950), Pretty Woman (early 90's) and A Cinderella Story (2004) so any comments on this would be most appreciated too.<<
...ACK! Are colleges still trying to persuade students
that "Pretty Woman" is a version of Cindy, when the script
was rather obviously an intentional 80's-ization of "Pygmalion"/"My
Fair Lady" from the beginning? (Right down to Shaw's ambiguous
"But what about Eliza?" ending, later rewritten to the
upbeat version where Julia walks out on Richard)--
Until Disney wanted to paste their own marketable brand-name on the product in case we hadn't noticed, with a few hundred carefully placed Cindy references in the script...
As for Disney's 1950 version, for the crimes that one usually accuses a "Disney version" of inflicting on a story (in this case, the cat-and-mice subplot, the comedy-relief Ugly sisters, etc.), it's actually one of the better and truest depictions of the character's stock-virtue personality so far:
Unlike other accusations leveled at Disney heroines of being "doormats" or "too dumb to know their situations", we see a Cindy only too aware of her plight, but holding to her one personal faith that Good will always be returned for Good, the one bright spot left she seems to have kept from her "earlier" life--
Rather than shallow viewers who wonder "why she just doesn't leave", or "get some payback", we see that's just not in her system of belief--She holds to the idea that her siblings are still "family", and that there must eventually be good in them somewhere, even though she certainly hasn't seen any evidence of it yet.
Even though Disney's version uses the "fairy godmother"
free-gifts version of the story, here, the magical intervention
doesn't appear until Cindy is reduced to sobbing "There's nothing
left to believe in..."--Which portrays a much more deserving
case for godmother-charity, and one who's certainly earned her Happy-Ending
grant application.
Even her twelve o'clock fear and running out on the prince come off as realistic apprehension at finally finding such unconditional acceptance--which at this point in her life would understandably be a shock--and certainty that she'll eventually lose this, too.
(And certainly more thought-out depictions than the pathetically withdrawn Walter Mitty of Rodgers & Hammerstein's musical, or the cookie-cutter "stumble-ducklings" of makeover-centric teen-grrl marketed entries like "Story".)
|
Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/6/05 3:39 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
I loathe the Disney movie for precisely the reasons DerekJ likes
it--but you were asking about the Perrault, not the Disney, right?
Or...no, just checked, you asked for comments on all your texts.
So here's why I loathe it: the complete valorization of female passivity
(you only get help when you're sobbing hysterically), the valorization
of hyperfemininity (it's not enough that the stepsisters are mean
and ugly--they're also bad singers), the good girl can't even condone
fantasies of aggression and triumph (she chastises the
dog for dreaming about catching the cat). Cinderella is
so passive and saccharine-sweet in this version that every time
I find myself unable to avoid the movie I root for the stepmother.
Also, note that Cinderella is the only blonde in the entire kingdom,
to judge from the ballroom scene, thus suggesting that to be blonde
is to be the most beautiful. Even the wretched mice get in on the
wretched sexism of the movie, as the fat mouse is told to leave
the sewing to the women--apparently, female mice have an innate
ability to sew. Who knew?
The idea that good brings good avoids questioning the assumptions about what it means to be "good" in the first place. I find Cinderella insufferable in this picture--an empty-headed twit.
Arguing that Pretty Woman is a revision of Cinderella does
not preclude it also being a version of Pygmalion. It's
a both/and situation. Pygmalion itself can be read, I think,
as a version of Cinderella. Colleges don't have that much power--the
parallels between Pretty Woman and Cinderella were coming
up in the reviews when it first came out, I believe, and a quick
google search confirms that it's a pretty popular point of view.
I find the idea of Pretty Woman completely unappealing,
so I haven't seen it, but from excerpts of the script I've read
I'd say it's a pretty legit interpretation.
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/6/05 3:51 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
>>I loathe the Disney movie for precisely the reasons DerekJ likes it--<<
( :b )
>>So here's why I loathe it: the complete valorization of female passivity (you only get help when you're sobbing hysterically), the valorization of hyperfemininity (it's not enough that the stepsisters are mean and ugly--they're also bad singers),<<
Low-comic business, yes, but meant to be contrasted with the scene of Cindy unconsciously singing the same song beautifully while scrubbing the floors in her peasant garb--
Meaning, that there's a quality of "beauty" that will eventually out, and doesn't necessarily come with the clothes or the pressure-moms.
>>Even the wretched mice get in on the wretched sexism of the movie, as the fat mouse is told to leave the sewing to the women--apparently, female mice have an innate ability to sew. Who knew?<<
One needs a thick cultural skin to get through the mice business--Until
you realize that the cutesy mice and birds are at least meant to
be a nod to Aschenputtel's helpful birds and critters,
and the fairytale staple that Being Nice to Lil' Things doesn't
go unnoticed...
Basically, Disney wants the story both ways, even though the more familiar F.G. material wins out for audience appeal in the end.
|
Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/6/05 3:59 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
Yes, I understand that it's meant to be contrasted to Cinderella's "effortless" conforming to feminine ideals--that's why I hate it. It's not unconscious though, because she makes a snide little bitchy comment about how bad the sisters' voices are, which also bugs me, because at that moment, even though she's all downtrodden, she's mocking the sisters for failing to live up to a feminine ideal, and she can bite me. I suppose I should add that's another thing I hate about this movie: the way it portrays femininity and virtue as something innate, but at the same time something you're condemned for not having: so the sisters have crappy voices and Cinderella has a lovely one. But it's the sisters who study and practice and are mocked for it--Cinderella's "goodness" at music is just effortless.
I also understand that of course the business with the existence of the mice is a nod to those mice and birds who helped Cindy sort through the lentils and ashes in earlier written versions. But damn, do I hate the Disney mice. They're a good argument for poison, as far as I'm concerned!
|
DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/6/05 4:16 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
Well, now it sounds as if we're just getting into female-bias reasons
against ("Yeesh, why does she have to be so perfect]??"
--Which is the main reason questions like these keep ending up on
term papers, but won't get any points on the academia.
(I mean, it's kind of embarrassing that we have a
clearer idea of the story by accident...It's not like we want
too, y'know!)
Case in point: Was referring to the fact that Disney's Cindy doesn't get her unasked-for fairy-godmother help just by crying about it, but by the fact that she, and we, think we've finally seen the momentary complete and utter triumph of Bad over Good, and her shortrange crisis of futility that it was ever worth it in the first place--
A situation no true Perrault-style "Indepent arbiter of morality" Fairy can conscienably let go unchecked...This looks like a job for the specialist Troubleshooter.
|
Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/6/05 4:39 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
I'm not sure what you mean by "female bias"--as women do make up half the world's humanity (more, really), I don't think women's issues are evidence of "bias" any more than men's interpretations are.
What I was trying to make clear is that Disney's Cinderella is perfect
if you buy into an essentially sexist notion of what makes a
woman perfect. I don't, and I can't stand her, not because
she's "perfect," but because she's really, really, insipid,
annoying, and passive, three qualities which are notably absent
from my idea of perfection (Myrna Loy's Nora Charles in The
Thin Man, on the other hand? Perfect.). What I was noting above
is that in the Disney movie, the achievement of their definition
of perfection is portrayed is effortless and natural, as opposed
to being the product of work, which is is.
|
Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/6/05 8:36 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
You know, Derek, the knee jerk reaction of "Here we go with
the female bias again ..." is awfully dismissive, awfully essentialist,
and awfully ... awful. Your opinion - that Disney's depiction is
"actually one of the better and truest depictions of the character's
stock-virtue personality so far" - is perfectly valid for
you, but the feminist perspective is in no way invalidated
by its more nuanced reading. In fact, a reading which considers
the authorial intentions behind those minute characterizations (whether
feminist, post-colonialist, or whatever the critics heart desires)
is, in my opinion, simply a lot stronger. You're accepting it as
an objective depiction of Right and Wrong - which, from a perspective
of moral relativism, is certainly interesting - but, I have to say
that, for me? All of the reasons that Veronica raises are on the
list of reasons that I could never really enjoy that version ...
and why I was so relieved to encounter Jane's essay on the "American
Cinderella." I don't think that I've ever heard it better said
then the simple "Poor Cinderella. Poor us." And I still
remember how vindicated I felt when I discovered the more flawed,
and infinitely more real-to-me depiction of the Cat Cinderella ...
In terms of the popularity of the tale in modernity? I think that I'd have to go with the over-looked virtue scenario ... 20th century folk, and particularly Americans, just love their underdogs (regardless of whether those underdogs are orphaned members of the bourgeousie, hookers, or misunderstood and angsting adolescents). Regardless of the initial priviledge, so often overlooked in modern updates, Cinderella is one of the very few stories in which we see a complete shift in social class ...
|
redtriskell
Registered User
(4/6/05 10:25 pm)
|
Re: Cinderella: The importance and popularity of the tale
At this point, after reading for a few days, I finally want to chime in. First of all, Perrault's Cinderella is so very narrow. He wrote it for an upper class, educated, articulate society. So, of course, his version of this character reflects the social mores of his time and place. I don't feel that the Parisian salon, filled with artists, playwrights, and socialites, had much bearing on Walt Disney. I think Disney was just a very clever man who recognized the appeal of these stories. I straddle the fence on the subject of Disney- I cannot deny that I loved the movies as a kid. I also can't deny that, as an adult, I cringe at the crass over-simplification and commercialism of stories I love. Hollywood and American movie goers are equally responsible for the dreck. If customers demanded a better product, they'd get it. The problem, IMHO, is that too many American viewers don't really want a complex movie. People who want complex end up having to read. And I am not saying that Hollywood has never made a complex, rewarding film. I'm not talking about indie film. I'm just saying that, as a rule, corporate filmmaking is mostly about dollars- not stories or characters. Hence, we have "Pretty Woman" and that recent atrocity "Cinderella" with what'shername. Why this relates to the question of the story's continued popularity... well, in a corporate America way, it's a story that will ALWAYS draw an audience. People consume the media that's put in front of them; Cinderella is a simple story. Easy to turn into a film. Easy to tamper with successfully. Plus, I agree that nearly everyone has at one time or another wished for someone to come along waving a magic wand to set things "right". At least right for themselves, anyway. I also confess my surprise at all this discussion of assorted film versions of Cinderella without a mention of "Ever After" Now, aside from some obvious problems of having Leonardo Da Vinci wandering around 17th century France and the Mona Lisa being rolled up in a tube, I think this movie is very appealing. The stepsisters are not ugly; one is mean, one is meek. And the prince bails on the heroine at a critical moment. By the time he realizes his mistake and rushes off to save her, he's too late- she has already saved herself. There are lots of other points I like about this version, but mostly it's the fact of Cinderella's pluckiness. I'm realizing I'm rambling without saying much...so I'm pausing to think some more.
|
|
