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Comment
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fairiegirl
(7/7/04 4:35 pm)
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Peter Pan
In the Maid Marian posting, Lisa Jensen asked a really interesting question about Peter Pan, and I'd love to hear other people's opinions about it: Since Peter Pan is more or less a literary tale not based on any folkloric legend, does it qualify as a fairy tale?
Personally, I've always thought of Peter Pan as similar to HCA's literary fairy tales; both works have re-entered the public consciousness in ways that transcend their initial literary form, and both have become well-known "fairy tales" for the generations that followed their publication.
I also found the Peter Pan/ Robin Hood comparison very interesting, and I have another comparison to add: Tim Burton's Edward Scissorhands. I know this movie is most obviously a Beauty and the Beast story, but I've always thought it was like Peter Pan too. Edward appears briefly at a crucial moment in the Winona Ryder's character's adolescence (can't remember her name!), just as Peter does for Wendy. Wendy/ Winona Ryder both mature during their interaction with Peter/ Edward, but neither relationship can be sustained in the real world. Like Peter returning to Neverland, Edward goes back to his own world (the abandoned mansion) and doesn't appear to age. Wendy tells her daughter Jane about Peter Pan, and Jane goes off to Neverland; Winona Ryder's character tells her
(grand?)daughter about Edward, and we expect that the daughter will go find him.
Sorry that was quite a long summary...
Anyway, I'd be interested in any comments that are even slightly related to this post!
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(7/7/04 5:25 pm)
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fairy tales and folktales
I think PP counts as a fairy tale, but I know there are others who disagree with me. In the folklore analysis I've read, "fairy tale" refers to literary tales as opposed to "folktale," which just refers to the oral folklore. PP certainly isn't a folktale--I don't even think it's based on a folktale--but seeing as Zipes counts Pinnochio, The Wizard of Oz, and the two Alice books as fairy tales, I say, why not PP? These books and stories tend to pervade the cultural consciousness the same way fairy tales based on folklore do.
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Lisa
Jensen Aschbacher
Registered User
(7/7/04 7:13 pm)
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Daughters of Pan
Also referring back to the Maid Marian post, thanks to Heidi for listing titles of two recent books that one might call spinoffs of the Peter Pan legend: "Lost Girls" and "Wendy." Interesting that these are both female-perspective views of the Pan legend, through the eyes of Wendy herself (sort of a prequel to "Peter Pan"), and (in "Lost Girls") Wendy's daughters, who continue the family tradition of finding themselves beguiled by Pan.
So if contemporary writers continue to use & shape the elements of the story for their own purposes, I suppose it does qualify as a fairy tale—at least in the respect that it seems endlessly renewable.
That said, aren't there some rather thorny copyright issues around PP for modern writers? I know all productions of the original play owe royalties to the St. Ormond's Childrens Hospital in London, basically in perpetuity. I also know a writer filed a lawsuit (possibly last year?) claiming said copyright did not extend to the characters in the play, only productions of the play itself—but I don't know the outcome of this suit. However, since both novels Heidi listed have been published this year, does anyone know if this copyright issue has been resolved?
Of course, I have a novel-in-progress based on characters from PP, which is why I'm asking! Thanks so much for any further information on this matter.
Lisa
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(7/7/04 8:50 pm)
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copyright
Hmm...I'm not sure but I do believe that copyright runs out after 100 years. I could be mistaken about that, though. I know that Gilbert Adair published a sequel a couple decades ago, Peter Pan and the Only Children, which is really quite good, so it shouldn't be too troublesome for you! I hope, anyway.
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Amal
Registered User
(7/7/04 9:08 pm)
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Copyright and a question
So there's apparently a whole slew of copyright laws pertaining to published and unpublished works... this tablelooked pretty comprehensive.
So, I haven't read the book yet -- does the name "Peter Pan" have any significance? Is it deliberately supposed to be the juxtaposition of a Christian name with the pagan deity? Or is he "Pan" because he plays pipes?
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(7/8/04 7:10 am)
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Re: Copyright and a question
Sorry, I don't have an answer to either question, but an anecdote. My 8 year old was reading over my shoulder at one point and said "Peter Pan has fairies. Of course it's a fairy tale!" I thought that rather succinct.:D
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lisajensen
Unregistered User
(7/8/04 10:16 am)
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Peter + Pan
You have a very perceptive 8-year-old! That was my initial feeling too—the presence of fairies must denote a fairy tale, even if it's not out of the folkloric tradition.
As to the name Peter Pan: I believe Barrie was quoted somewhere about "Pan" coming from the pipes, also suggesting a certain pagan quality. (Running amok in the forest, etc.) "Peter" was the name of one of the five Llewelyn-Davies boys Barrie adopted after their parents died, and for whom he first created the Peter Pan stories.
Thanks for the link to the very useful copyright tables. But the Peter Pan copyright is a special case, I think. When the copyright lapsed in (I think) 1987, it was renewed indefinitely in Britain by an act of Parliament, and I think there's something similar on the books in the U.S. Still, spinoff books continue to be published, so that's encouraging!
Thanks,
Lisa
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fairiegirl
(7/8/04 2:31 pm)
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Peter Pan
I've also read that the name "Pan" was a specific reference to the Greek deity, both for the reasons Lisa mentioned and because Pan was known for being a-moral, selfish and egotistic; similarly, Pan is "heartless" and fond of saying "oh, the cleverness of me." In the original illustrations, Peter does look quite a bit like a satyr.
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fairiegirl
(7/8/04 2:33 pm)
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Peter Pan
sorry for not proofreading-
that was supposed to be "similarly, Peter is "heartless" and...
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LostBoyTootles
(7/10/04 5:30 pm)
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Re: Peter Pan
I don't believe Peter Pan is a fairy tale, and I'm positively obsessed with that particular story.
As far as the rights, they were supposed to run out after (I believe) 75 years after Barrie's death, however a law was changed so the Great Ormand Street Hospital for Children could continue getting the money for it.
Tootles~~If I can't be anything important, would you like to see me do a trick? |
bwcajp
Registered User
(7/15/04 10:32 am)
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Re: Peter Pan
Hello everyone.
This is the first post for me here, so greetings one and all!
I'd say there's a very obvious connection with Peter Pan and the god Pan. If you read the first PP book "Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens" (with Arthur Rackham's gorgeous 1906 illustrations) Barrie makes the the connection very clear - baby Peter, the "betwixt and between", rides around the Gardens on a goat.
I think by the time of the second Peter Pan book when Kensington Gardens are replaced by Never Never Land and Wendy etc are introduced, Barrie was riding a wave of popularity, so the earthy connections were toned down.
John
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John Shelley Illustration
http://www.jshelley.com
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(8/25/04 5:13 pm)
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Re: Peter Pan
This just came in over a writers' listserv I'm on:
Want To Write a Sequel to 'Peter Pan'?
London's Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is largely supported by revenue from its ownership rights to J.M. Barrie 's Peter Pan , has begun a search for a writer who can come up with a sequel to the story before the copyright on the original runs out in 2007, Reuters reported Monday. The hospital said that it is looking for established authors willing to submit a synopsis and a sample chapter.
The message didn't give any further info, guidelines or contact info. But the copyright runs out 2007. Clearly, there's no shortage of sequels out there--perhaps this is some kind of "official" sequel, proceeds to benefit the hospital?
Edited to add further information.
A BBC story with more details can be found here.
They want a story with the same characters, but Barrie tells us
at the end of his novel that
a) Tinkerbell is dead.
b) Captain Hook is dead and Peter has forgotten all about him.
c) After a few spring cleaning visits which do not include the boys, Wendy grows up (so do her brothers and the lost boys), and Peter takes her daughter to Neverland instead, and so on with daughters ad infinitum.
One person who read this story had the idea of a prequel, which I like, but of course a prequel could not include Wendy, Michael, or John. If I were to do a prequel, it would be with Wendy's mother.
I still highly recommend Gilbert Adair's Peter Pan and the Only Children.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 8/25/04 5:35 pm
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Lisa
Jensen Aschbacher
Registered User
(8/26/04 7:52 pm)
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Peter Pan sequel
Thanks for the post, Veronica. One of my writing buddies sent me the same story a few days ago.
Of course, my novel-in-progress won't fly with the gang at St. Ormond St. It's sort of an alternative sequel to PP, centered on the plight of Hook, a grown man forced to live for eternity in a child's fantasy world, and his journey to escape the Neverland. No Wendy (or any of her ancestors or descendants), no Michael, no John. No Tinker Bell, although there are fairies, mer-folk and a few Indians. As to Pan, he's...well, he's sort of the villain, or at least he wields a decidedly ominous power.
The question is, will the copyright ONLY be granted to the approved author writing the approved sequel? Or has the copyright only ever extended to versions of the play "Peter Pan?" Writers like Gilbert Adair and the woman who recently wrote "Lost Girls" seem to have wriggled into print with their alternate versions of the story & characters. I continue to hope for the best!
Lisa
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bielie
Unregistered User
(8/27/04 3:29 pm)
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Pan copywright
I think you should read this if you are writing a Pan story.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/enter...622001.stm
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(8/30/04 3:05 pm)
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Re: Pan copywright
Interesting. Why are they going after her and not anyone else?
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Lisa Jensen
Unregistered User
(8/30/04 7:28 pm)
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Peter Pan
My question exactly. I've read about that suit being bought in January, 2003, but haven't been able to discover the results (if any. I suppose it could still be pending).
Is it possible that every other contemporary writer of Pan-inspired material has paid obligatory royalties of some sort to the hospital? I know that's been the case with movies, like the Disney "Pan" cartoon & sequel, and Spielberg's "Hook."
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Heather KT
Registered User
(8/31/04 12:18 am)
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Re: Peter Pan
Adding another to the new "Peter Pan" books is _Peter and the Starcatchers_, by Dave Barry and Ridley Pearson, due out shortly (if it's not in stores already).
According to a recent review, it's a prequel that explains how Peter, Hook & co. ended up in Never Land.
The publisher is Disney/Hyperion-- maybe that made any potential copyright issues easier for them to clear?
Heather
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Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(8/31/04 4:00 am)
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old tales
As to whether PP is a 'fairy tale', the overall shape is a bit like old tales of a mortal carried off to the land of the 'fairies' for some task (midwife, lover of the queen, etc :) ) and then returned, usually a bit worse for it. Fairies kidnapping children is not new with Barrie. Didn't Barrie's play MARY ROSE have something like that?
Another motif, I think it was in the original as well as in Disney, was a family situation being corrected: the irritable mischievious father becoming more mellow during the children's absence -- as the evil stepmother back home dies during Hansel's and Gretal's adventure.
Hm, the father did sums with a rag tied round his head to see if they could afford to keep the baby. Then Pan ("I'm youth, I'm joy") vanquished Hook....
Rosemary
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 8/31/04 4:02 am
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deathcookie
Registered User
(9/1/04 1:24 pm)
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peter pan copyrights
I know that Jane Yolen wrote a short story using Peter Pan characters, and I don't believe she had any issues arise from it. I am not sure, but I believe the Hospital only presses for royalties when the sequels are published in England, and that was what happened in the case of the author who is now embroiled in a lawsuit; my understanding is that she sought to have it published in England, and that is when the Hospital took notice of it.
Hope that helps,
Callie
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Lisa Jensen Aschbacher
Registered User
(9/1/04 7:15 pm)
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Re: peter pan copyrights
Which Jane Yolen story features Pan characters? I would love to read it.
Thanks, Callie!
Lisa
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(9/1/04 7:32 pm)
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Re: peter pan copyrights
Lisa, have you read the short story about Captain Hook in The Faery Reel? It sounds like you and the author of that story (I'm moving and all my books are in boxes so please, please forgive me for not being able to give you the name) have similarly interesting perspectives on Hook. It was a great story. Also, Tiger Lily shows up. I love Tiger Lily too.
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