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Author
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Comment
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Honouria
Registered User
(3/24/03 2:43 pm)
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Re: Reflections
Thanks Greg
I haven't actually got your story yet, (finances of poor student running a bit dry) Would you consider your version as being influenced by feminism ? Its awfully tempting to assume only women can write feminist texts but I'd like to believe that wasn't the case. Don't suppose you could give me a brief run down of how you have adressed the charcters in order to balance gender conflicts and do you refer to sexual implications as Carter does?
How's this you help me understand your text and I'll buy
it!! he he
No seriously do you think your version would be a useful example to use in my study?
Thanks
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(3/24/03 7:09 pm)
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the dreaded thesis
Hi, Honouria,
As one whose doctoral thesis topped 700 pages, I can appreciate the problem of having too much material and too many different possible ways to look at it. A public confession that I should probably not make -- my undergraduate thesis (way more than 8000 words) wasn't handed in until about 10 hours before I physically received my diploma... my adviser lied so I could graduate... I was, like you, paralyzed and didn't start writing until four weeks before the end. I think it was sheer terror that kicked me into motion.
My suggestion would be that instead of trying to be comprehensive in any way in 8000 words -- which you can't possibly be -- that you choose just one of the three fairy tales you mention, and then focus on no more than four or five of versions, choosing the ones that seem to best illustrate the issues you are interested in (with passing reference to others as relevant). Maybe five is even too many? My undergraduate thesis, which looked at symbols of evil in literature from an anthropological perspective, used (IIRC) only DRACULA, HAMLET and CRIME AND PUNISHMENT.
( I can't tell you now what led me to choose those three texts, but they did all turn out to be really interesting when viewed via Victor Turner, in whose work on ritual and liminality I was very interested at the time.) You can frame your essay with a brief discussion of other fairy tales. I would guess that if you set yourself firm limits as to which and how many versions you will allow yourself to look at, you will not find it hard to start writing.
Judith
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/25/03 11:20 am)
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Re: Reflections
Honouria,
I think I'll let someone else on the site--Jane or Judith or Helen maybe--address definitively whether my variant of Bluebeard is feminist. I certainly think so, but I'm going to be prejudiced.
Rundown: I'm conflating the "Fitcher's Bird" variant of Bluebeard with a fictitious version of the Millerite millennialist cult of the 1840s in America, which allows me to explore the controlling nature of the Bluebeard figure on both a personal level (with each of his wives) and on a much larger level (with his followers). The sexual implications such as those Angela Carter explores in "The Bloody Chamber" are quite evident--the control Bluebeard demands is of his wife's every desire, every thought, as well as her body. And it's the wife who is intelligent, self-aware and neither persuaded by his zealotry nor passive in her response who has the power to overcome him. The setting of the book also touches upon spiritualism, with the three sisters standing in for the Fox sisters who effectively created spiritualism, and spiritualism itself can be viewed as a feminist movement--of women wresting control of their relationship to God out of the hands of the patriarchy of Calvinism and a male clergy.
Finally, I hope that feminist texts don't have to be written by women, but that may depend on just what defines a feminist text. I suspect, as with most else, there will be advocates for various positions on this question. That's what makes this site such fun.
Greg
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Ina Cosio
Unregistered User
(3/25/03 11:57 am)
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Re: Reflections
Hi Honouria
Sorry for the late reply, I made that post a few days before my recent one. I'll post them again here.
These are the essays I reffered to, for my paper.
Snow White; Susan Gubar and Sandra Gilbert's 'The Further Adventures of Snow White: Feminism, Modernism, and the Family Plot.' (essay in No Man's Land; The Place of the Woman Writer in the 20th Century Vol .IV)
Dr. Pinkola Estes' Women Who Run Wild With the Wolves (can be used for bluebeard and Snow White)
The Endicott Studio Coffee House collection of poems has two poems on Snow White.
Red Riding Hood; RedGhost (website on feminist versions;(members.lycos.co.uk/thaz/...t/red.htm)
Hope these will help
Ina Cosio
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Helen
Registered User
(3/25/03 12:59 pm)
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Masculine feminists ...
Well, I for one would definitely argue for the presence of masculine authors in the creation of feminist texts and retellings, _Fitcher's Bride's_ being a prime example (Greg's wonderful retelling of "Rapunzel," entitled "The Root of the Matter" in _Snow White, Blood Red_ being another).
One element of the story that I found particularly powerful throughout lay in Greg's careful illustration of feminine "weaknesses" (meaning, here, not weaknesses inherent to the gender but weaknesses particular to his female characters) being shored up by feminine strengths (ditto). In the original tales, the relationship between siblings are assumed to be strong for the simple reason of kinship, but there's never really a clear explication of the bonds between the sisters (or sisters and brothers as the case may be). In _Fitcher's Brides_ the sisters do have various flaws - whether they stem from previous relationships or issues of temperment - and the ways in which they accomodate those necessary human drawbacks are illuminating. Greg (here I pause to note that as an academic, I'm so much more used to referring to authors by their last names than by their first ... this is *highly* preferable, especially knowing the author) chooses those flaws to reflect stereotypical "feminine" flaws (here, I'm using the term generally) such as promiscuity, lightmindedness, a tendency to gossip, and highlights the fallacy of the assumption that these traits are somehow universal across the gender by providing each heroine with a corresponding strength that shores up one of her sisters, creating an interesting system of balance and counterbalance.
Drawing, as it does, upon the religious attitudes of the millenial cult, there are some very interesting passages concerning the "sinful" natures of women, which Greg neatly subverts through the actions of his heroine(s) (here, I'd like to point out that even the two sisters who "fail" are motivated by self-preservation and the knowledge that their situation is unacceptable, despite their fears: even in failing, they confront their weaknesses, Amy and Vern as much as Kate).
I'll stop here before I find myself writing a monograph on "Feminist Themes in Frost" but I will say that I highly recommend it, both as a primary text for your thesis, and simply as an enthralling work. I'll also say that I think that I agree with Judith wholeheartedly: I tried to do something similar in an essay on Donkeyskin for my MA essay, which ran to around 10,000 words including footnotes, and had to stop myself short at four variants - if you plan to do close reading, it's simply too much material, otherwise. Good luck!
Best,
Helen
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/25/03 4:25 pm)
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Hmmm
I have found the discussion of Greg's version of Bluebeard very interesting. While I enjoyed the story immensely, Greg writes a wonderful tale, I don't think I would have characterized it as particularly feminist.
My view stems from the fact that the female characters throughout are extremely subserviant to the male characters in all manners, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. It is only when aroused at an instinctual level that the protaganist is able to gain the power to rise up. There is very little of the manipulating and turning of the situation to her advantage that I would have anticipated in a truly "feminist" version. Greg teases us into thinking that he is going to give us that kind of a story, but in the end, it disappoints. One could argue, however, that Greg attempts to show the same level of subserviance in his male characters, but I think a careful analysis would reveal otherwise. The one exception is the father character, who is equally weak, but I viewed as shadowy extension of the daughters'. Interestingly, the strong "mother" character turns out to be the weakest of all - hence perpetuating the "female equals weak" stereotype.
Do I think that men can write feminist work? Absolutely. I just don't think this rises quite to that level. It is just a darn good story.
Jess
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Nalo
Registered User
(3/25/03 7:34 pm)
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Re: Reflections
Isn't there also a classical version of the tale which has the woman saving herself? I believe it's a French version, and I know I've heard Dora Knez tell it. It contains the lines,
Be bold, be bold, but not too bold,
Yet that thy life's blood should run cold.
And I think that at one point, it has our heroine pulling the severed hand of one of her helpless predeccesors out of her pocket to prove to (Reynardine? Is that the version?) that she knows about his evildoings.
Buffy Sainte-Marie also has a Euro traditional song on one of her albums that's a telling of the Reynardine story.
-nalo, rambling
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(3/25/03 11:18 pm)
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Re: Reflections
"Be bold, be bold" is most often referred to from the English tale, Mr Fox. Read it here at:
www.surlalunefairytales.c...mrfox.html
Heidi
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(3/26/03 7:38 am)
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indefinitively
> I think I'll let someone else on the site--Jane or Judith or Helen maybe--address definitively whether my variant of Bluebeard is feminist. I certainly think so, but I'm going to be prejudiced.
JB: Greg, "definitively" is an impossibility. There are as a zillion definitions of feminism out there, each with its advocates and its bitter enemies. (And there are those who argue that no man can be feminist no matter what.) My own feeling is to avoid such definitional tarpits where at all possible.
I think FITCHER'S BRIDES does a creditable job of portraying female characters and of viewing Bluebeard/Fitcher through their eyes. I could identify with the girls and understand (and believe in) their choices. It didn't portray women as inevitably weak or lacking in courage and needing rescue by a man, as either lacking in sexuality or having a sexuality whose proper role is to be subordinate to men's needs. It didn't derogate femaleness in anyway.
I'm sorry that those characteristics are sufficiently unusual even in this day and age so that we might want to put a label on the book calling attention to them. (In fact, just thinking about the female sexuality issue makes me pissed off all over again at CRYPTONOMICON. For example.) But I sure do appreciate their presence in your work.
Judith
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/26/03 1:22 pm)
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Re: indefinitively
Helen,
Next ICFA, I'm buying the cigarettes.
Jess,
I understand what you're saying about the female characters. My question would be--how does one portray female characters accurately within the historical context and not show them in some manner subservient (and I don't mean weak--these aren't interchangeable terms)? Rebellions of that period had to be small victories, against a predominantly masculine universe dictating rules at a thousand levels. As an example, while the spiritualist movement, starting in 1848, is considered to have been a feminist social movement, it was nevertheless not overtly so save that most of the adherents were women, but is framed that way from our vantage; that is, the women of the time didn't recognize its feminist nature, but were simply acting out of desires to a)circumvent the patriarchal church's dictates on their place (everyone from Cotton Mather to Jonathan Edwards told them they were at fault for our fall from grace), on their relationship to their dead (most often their own children), and on their relationship to God.
Judith, I know exactly what you're saying about "Cryptonomicon." Greg
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/26/03 7:03 pm)
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Fitcher's
Greg,
I retract my statement "weak" in the classic sense, except perhaps in the case of the stepmother. I agree that it is nearly impossible to write a credible tale taking place in the time and place of your Fitcher's Brides without placing the characters, especially the female characters, in a subserviant position. Your story is partly appealing because it describes the girls' relationships with Fitcher, their stepmother and father within the constructs of this rather confining situtation. (spoiler alert)
I think you come closest with the Kate, obviously purposefully, in creating a less docile, more questioning character. The juxtaposition with the other two "brides" is wonderful. There were points, however, in the story where I anticipated Kate taking a stronger role, only to have her ignore the opportunity, i.e., her realization of how her father was being manipulated, or become incapacitated. That isn't to say she acted out of character, or that in not doing what I expected, with my 21st C values, it detracted in any way from the story. I believe your story was historically correct, fascinating, well-told, etc., but again, I didn't find it quite to the level I would describe as a feminist retelling. As JB so rightly points out, the term "feminist" is a matter of interpretation however. Then again, it shouldn't really matter how one catagorizes a story so long as the reader enjoys it. And this reader did.
Jess
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(3/27/03 2:47 am)
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early morning rambling
I am not certain when "feminism" came to mean "already self-actualized." What I see in Greg's novel is the gradual movement of Kate from a nascent feminist to a wholly realized one. (I wrote a fairy tale about this called "Moon Ribbon" a long time ago, seeking to tell a story about a girl who LEARNS strength, who LEARNS to say no. A Cinderella who at last stands up to her stepmother and stepsisters, but gets there in steps.
Some of us are born feminists, some learn feminism, and some have it thrust upon us. One is not a better way than another.
At least those are my chaotic thoughts early in the morning. By someone who rather describes herself as a humanist, wanting parity between the sexes, and feeling men need that parity as well as women.
Jane
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Honouria
Registered User
(3/27/03 5:29 am)
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wow
Ever get the feeling you have opened a can of worms?
I am certainly intrigued enough to purchase Greg's book,
My own understanding of feminism comes under the learning stage. Until I started university I knew very little about the development of feminism within literature. Through reading for my dissertation I have noted so many issues regarding the possibility of presenting fairy tales from a feminist or maybe as Jane says humanist perspective. e.g. Many people view Angela Carters bluebeard retelling as failing to meet feminist standards because of the use of S and M and her passive sexuality under the Marquis gaze. Critics seem to draw on Pornography and link the text exclusively to carters essay's on the Sadeian Women. Possibly as she admitted they were a strong influence on the tale. Because pornography in the early days of the feminist movement was strongly protested, due to its presence as a essentially male domain, pandering to masculine ideals of women and the act of sex, some critics claim the pornographic/eroticist nature of the tale means Carter is selling up to patriarchal ideals and as such the text cannot be considered feminist.
I wonder if anyone has any opinions on this?
My personal opinion is that because the character is a willing and excited participant in the sexual action, Carter is rewriting the woman within the original story as a fully dimensional sexual woman who may be pulled into an addictive union with lust but who also maintains her ability to experience life fully and like all men and women (through the first person narrative.) realise her mistake was not in disobeying her husband, as Perrault would suggest but for falling into a union driven by desire, for wealth, culture and sex, rather than a relationship based on love and mutuality.
....If you get my meaning!!
Thanks again, heading off to Amazon to purchase Fitcher's Brides.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/27/03 6:15 am)
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Re: wow
Honouria,
{"Ever get the feeling you have opened a can of worms?"}
Yeah, but *what* a can of worms.
I'm going to have to look at Carter's story again, but my recollection of it is that the woman is empowered through sexual realization, which is not an uncommon theme in her work. But it appeared at the time when feminism as a movement was exploding upon the scene, and the issues of sexuality/pornography/S&M were all live grenades. I'm not sure they aren't now, but the discussion of them has settled down a bit over 30 years. In some respects, I think Angela Carter was just ahead of the curve. Especially if you compare her with, say, Anne Rice, whose S&M themes strike me as anything *but* empowering (not to mention badly written).
Jess--yes, Kate is my heroine, the closest to a 21st century woman. And in workshopping an earlier draft of it, some of the comments I got--from women I should add--were that she was too contemporary. I toned her down only a little, but you see immediately the conundrum of trying to tell a creditable tale while blasting away at some of it. To me, any feminist expression had to emerge out of the story, not be laid on top of it--that way lies didacticism. That may have been the case with Carter as well. Her allegiance must be to the story first and foremost.
Finally, thank you all for your kind words on the book. You've no idea how rewarding it is to hear these things.
Greg
P.S. Jane, where was "Moon Ribbon" published?
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(3/27/03 8:11 am)
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women under the patriarchy or some such
Re Greg's book, and in general, writing about women in oppressive societies and historical periods from a contemporary perspective is always going to be problematic. It's the perennial issue plaguing anthropologists and historians, the inevitable imposition of one's own values and concerns on the past, plus writers also have the task of writing a story with characters they and their readers can relate to.
To me a similar issue (though getting to the similarity is a bit roundabout) is the adoption by indigenous people of Christianity. Once upon a time I saw all missionaries and missionizing as a very destructive form of colonial oppression. Then I got to know some of the older generation who were devout and practicing Christians and learned more about the choices they had faced in their lives, and came to understand how making certain choices may look like accomodation but within the very constricting limits on a person's life can also be empowering transformation. We probably all want heroes who can break free of all the constrictions, in some form achieve victory OVER the oppressive system, but this isn't the way most people live their lives. And in fact all societies have their oppressions, but, I suppose like wearing corsets, you don't notice them so much if you grow into them from childhood.
As a child I always used to think those oppressed women of history must have been stupid or weak or cowardly. (I never understood why my mother didn't just say to my father, "Cook dinner yourself if you don't like what I make.") But now I realize that, of course, there were always many strong, brave and intelligent women who made accomodations or choices that empowered them or not, without knocking down the walls of the whole system -- which might well, in real life as opposed to fiction, have brought even more oppression down on their heads. Somehow it doesn't seem fair to those women to say they weren't also heroes. Jess, I realize that isn't exactly what you were saying, and I did say I wanted to avoid definitional debates, but if I were to offer a definition of feminism I would want it to start from looking at things from the woman's point of view, from WOMEN'S points of view, and that the necessity, or choice, of accomodating to oppression in one way or another is and was the lives of very many women. So how can it only be feminist to look at the women who completely overcame oppression -- as if that's even possible?
These thoughts were very much in my mind when I wrote my story "Dream of Rain," which is about a girl in her puberty seclusion struggling to force herself into the adult woman's role that her society expects of her, and how she finally and creatively resolves the contradictions. I workshopped the story at Sycamore Hill, it was published in INTERZONE and then reprinted in my chapbook, and what has continually struck me is the gender gap in reading that particular story out of everything I've written -- male readers are usually lukewarm if that, women more positive. From one point of view it might be anti-feminist, I suppose, as the girl ends up marrying the husband chosen for her, whom she dislikes -- but that's what happened to a lot of girls throughout history; how did they LIVE within the limitations of their time and place?
Sorry to be going on so long about this; I guess I'm reacting in defense of Greg's female characters and his right to "historicize" them. I wonder if anyone here has read Joyce Carol Oates' BLOODSMOOR ROMANCE (one of her "genre" novels)? Her story has five 19th century sisters, full of gothic Victorian detail, and the sisters run the gamut from completely traditional through the unusual. Of course being Oates it's all a bit twisted: the most traditional sister, for example, who marries a minister, is widowed in an episode involving erotic strangulation.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/27/03 9:26 am)
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More
First, Honoraria, opening a can of worms is the best kind of thread. Hopefully, all this discussion has given you more to think about, but has also helped you to define more closely what you intend to discuss in your thesis.
Judith, I was not trying to say that by being a feminist story the protaganist must overcome all oppression (and I am not sure that you were attributing that to me). Rather, I guess I was hoping for some proactive rather than reactive action on the part of the protaganist, and I agree with Jane that this kind of action can be learned. I think I have stated my position on Greg's book sufficiently (unless you want more) to explain why I don't see that in his character(s).
With respect to oppressive societies, it is difficult for me to argue with an anthropologist, so I won't. Your comments above, reminded me, however, very much of two passages in Steven Ambrose's Undaunted Courage. In one passage, he quotes, paraphrases or interpretes Lewis's journal at Fort Clatsop. Apparently, the men were disgruntled about doing "women's work", thinking it below them. In another passage, he discusses Lewis's observation that the Nez Perce or Shoshone women did all the "grunt" work, the packing of bags, portage, gathering of roots, etc., where the men just hunted and sat around. Ambrose notes that the men needed to be on constant alert for Blackfeet raids, which Lewis apparantely forgot or didn't think about. This seems consistent with what you said about the difficulty of ignoring our own values when viewing an alien culture.
It also seems a trueism that any society has certain tasks which must be performed by someone, whether women or men. At times these tasks may seem oppressive, like the your mother's cooking for a ungrateful family. It is likely, however, that your mother was not always completely satisfied with the manner in which "tasks" were performed by your father, and it may be that your father would have liked greater sharing of some of the more creative domestic tasks. Truly no one likes to do only non-intellectual, grunt work. Shifting of "tasks" isn't necessarily feminist. It is rather the attitude of the society in which the tasks are done, the ability to express ones self, the ability to take on intellectual as well as non-intellectual tasks, and the freedom to leave a dangerous situation, etc. that makes a society oppressive or non-oppressive. And yes, sometimes the walls of an oppressive society must be knocked down one brick at a time.
All this said, the characters in Greg's book were in part in an oppressive situation of their own making. A contemporary woman to Greg's characters in another sitation might not have been. His characters had the experience of being in those other situations at other times in the past, and even within the time period of the book itself. I am not sure what I am trying to say here, other than to repeat myself.
Further, I think that at any given time part of person, any person, is repressed and part is being explored. The repressed portion might be repressed because of the society or the individual sitation that the person is living in. The same could be said about the explored portion. My own stories tend to focus on the main characters discovering part of themselves that they heretofore failed to recognize. Is that feminist? Is that learning feminism? Or is it merely self-discovery? Ah, the problem with definitions.
Jess
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Nalo
Registered User
(3/30/03 10:18 am)
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Re: More
What I really want to know, Greg, is whether the title of the book came from a typo, and whether the resulting typo was part of the inspiration for the book itself. Great discussion thread. Glad that it does feel like a discussion, not a fight. I guess one of my criteria for whether a piece of fiction is feminist or not is something vague about whether it would have been valuable to the emergent, pre-feminist me of 2.5 decades ago, and whether it says something valuable about gender roles to the current feminist me. Fitcher's Brides does, and I appreciate that it does so while remaining within the reality of gender roles in the time and place in which the novel is set. What it tells me is not a revelation to me now, but might well be to someone younger than me. And it may be patronising of me, but I do value enormously the knowledge that the understanding that the novel reveals of the impact of gender roles on women particularly (but on men, too) in that time and place comes from a male writer. To me, that's still revolutionary, and it makes the book feminist enough for me.
I'm also mindful that it might not be so much whether a particular text is feminist or not, but whether it yields itself to a feminist analysis. Does that make any sense?
-nalo
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/31/03 12:12 pm)
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Re: More
Nalo,
Ah, the truth revealed...
No, the title didn't come from a typo. It could have (I tend to type my first name backwards when I'm in a hurry, but nevermind that). It came from me sitting with a pen and paper and sort of free-associatively coming up with a list of potential book titles, and somewhere in the middle of that finding "Fitcher's Brides" and thinking that I liked it for being both a parody of the original fairy tale's name and right for the book. Sorry, that's as clever as I got.
P.S. Got my contributor's copy of "Mojo" in the mail from Warners. And Andy Duncan is forming a Mojo panel for next year's ICFA, to which he's already stapled me. I hope you can get to Florididia to moderate us.
Greg (not "Gerg")
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(4/1/03 7:36 am)
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One's own preoccupations
Jess> All this said, the characters in Greg's book were in part in an oppressive situation of their own making. A contemporary woman to Greg's characters in another sitation might not have been. <...> My own stories tend to focus on the main characters discovering part of themselves that they heretofore failed to recognize. Is that feminist? Is that learning feminism? Or is it merely self-discovery? Ah, the problem with definitions.
Judith: Had a long reply taking in the division of labor, economic self-determination and the status of women across cultures, ready to post the other day and managed to nuke it -- perhaps for the best as it was trending wildly OT.
I did just want to comment that oppressions of one's own making, and breaking free of same, is a recurring theme for me, in writing and in life. In real life that issue seems likely to be around as long as human beings are around, with gender notions (even as they change over time) as one grouping of a vast array of ways in which we can limit and define and undermine ourselves, and where transformation within is at least as important as the transformation of the external world. So maybe I'm predisposed to respond to that issue in reading fiction... it doesn't seem necessarily either feminist or non- or anti-feminist, just an aspect of human nature to which specifically feminist issues can be attached, or not.
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/2/03 10:17 am)
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Little Red Riding Hood
On the question of stories to focus on in a paper, Little Red Riding Hood is available in several versions showing contrast between cultures/periods. For perspective, you might read the Introduction to Calvino's _Italian Folktales_ and his notes to his version, "The False Grandmother." The version collected in the 1880s (titled 'l'orca') is macabre comedy, with the girl soon catching on to the imposture and escaping by saying she has to go to the bathroom, followed by substituting a goat for herself and a comic chase. In 'l'orca' there is no encounter with a wolf en route, and iirc the monster is really female. So any Perrault/Grimm sexual overtones may have been added at the same time as the wimpy later heroine, moralistic ending, etc.
Working from the 1880s 'l'orca' I did a version that departs from the original further than Calvino's. It's very short, I could email it if you like.
A shorter French story from the 1800s is at
www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#france
Perrault was writing round about the time of the Cabinet des Fees, that added gloom and sadism to Rapunzel. In old Italian versions it is a comedy of the herone and prince concealing their affair from the witch, and eventually escaping successfully. The blinding and tears etc came from C d F.
On the question of strong heroines vs strong positions in society, in my retellings I've mostly strengthened the heroines but not their immediate positions. I didn't want to show a society that is more stacked against women than the one that readers will (hopefully) find when they grow up, so there are lots of female rulers etc. But some stories call for the heroine's individual position to be a weak one: youngest sibling, kidnapped, orphan forced into service, etc. In other stories, where the heroine reaches out to rescue someone else, she often came from a strong individual position in the pre-moralistic version, ie a supportive family or indulgent king-father. Somehow this sort got left out of later versions of Grimm.... :-)
Rosemary r@rosemarylake.com
www.rosemarylake.com
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