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Author
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Comment
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(8/28/02 7:57:41 am)
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Demonic Nomenclature
It gets a little chancey when we start talking about what is/isn't a demon, or ghost, or fairy. As already noted, in some traditions fairies actually are the ghosts of the dead. I know pixies were often claimed to be the souls of un-baptised children. Then when you get into cultures with a strong supernatural tradition like japan the line gets even blurier. Some distinctions are made, such as "yoorei" (revenant spirits seeking revenge), "youkai" (monstrous creatures that may be transformed humans or unique entities), and the related "bakemono" which is usually translated simply as "monster" but more literally means something that has changed form. Then you have things like "oni" which is usually translated as demon but really isn't, at least in our own cultural/religious reference; it's more of an ogre. In fact, most of what's translated as "demon" usually isn't, except when you're talking about entities actually thought to exist in one or another Buddhist hells.
Kelpies and such are considered fairy creatures here instead of simply monsters, so is a kappa a fairy creature too? Would a kelpie and a kappa get along? Depends on your point of view, I think, and a lot of the rest does as well. One of the reasons, from the writer's standpoint, that these traditions are just such a great place to play.
In a related note, here's an url to a "fairy museum" in Japan, which rather illustrates some of the cross-cultural influences at work:
www.town.kaneyama.fukushi...fairy.html
Edited by: Richard Parks at: 8/29/02 1:00:10 pm
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Helen
Registered User
(8/29/02 3:14:17 pm)
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Tardily yours ...
Dear Delia:
I'm fashionably late in replying (was away from home, so when I saw the thread in a 'Net cafe, I gnashed my teeth in anguish at not having sufficient time or access to my library to respond properly), but this sounds absolutely *wonderful*! I'm afraid that I can't contribute much on Middle Eastern or Asian myth, but if you're still looking for Slavic specialists, I second the suggestion of Linda Ivanits - _Russian Folk Belief_ is a great resource, not least of all because of the bibliography! Her style is highly informative, and she tosses out a lot of interesting theories to explain the cultural quirks.
Some other excellent sources to consult are _Essential Russian Mythology_, by Pyotr Simonov, _Myths and Folktales of the Russians, Western Slavs, and Maygars_, by Jeremiah Curtin, _Russian Myths_, by Elizabeth Warner, _Traditional Slovak Folktales_, by David Cooper, and *anything* by Jack V. Haney. He's come out with four books in a series of eight so far; the first one, _An Introduction to the Russian Folktale_, provides an excellent overview of the topic, and the later ones focus on specific sub-genres (animal tales, wonder tales, etc.).
The intersection between faerie revenants and "true" fey is particularly interesting in Russian myth; one of the most popular spirits, the rusalka (a kind of water nixie) is said to be generated from the suicide or violent death of young girls, who are given a choice as to what they will do after death - a kind of "The Little Mermaid" in reverse (making one wonder precisely what Anderson read ...).
Russian myths are deeply fascinating to me, and their use in modern fiction can be even more so ... C.J. Cherryh and Orson Scott Card both stayed pretty close to the traditional folktales in their respective (highly successful) forays into the territory; I was even more intrigued by China Mieville's recent use of the myths in _Perdido Street Station_.
Among all of his other weirdling creatures, he tosses in a race of water-weaving vodyanoi (in one really great scene, the vodyanoi go on strike, wielding placards that read HUMANS AND VODYANOI AGAINST THE BOSSES ... great shades of Marx ... the meeting of myth and politics is always interesting ...). Strangely, his vodyanoi appear to have a symbiotic relationship with another culture's aquatic creation - undines. It's interesting, but I wish that there had been more explanation ... as far as I know, the two breeds are more or less parallel to one another, taking societal differences into account; making one into a humanoid (humanesque?) type of character, and the other into an elemental parasite has interesting implications.
I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with (and am still anguished at having missed the classes at New Paltz - arrggh), so I'm just going to take advantage of this opportunity to say how much I love your work. _The Porcelain Dove_ was a masterpiece, and the story of Alexander the Stag in _A Distant Soil_ was poignantly beautiful. Hoping to catch the next workshop ...
Best,
Helen
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Delia
Unregistered User
(9/13/02 9:08:50 am)
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Effusive Thanks
I'm back from WorldCon in San Jose and Arizona, and have finally ploughed through enough dirty laundry and unopened mail to get to the Important Things In Life, my story among them.
I'm enchanted and inspired by all your suggestions. The short story is necessarily pretty limited in the number of sprites I can deal with and the complexity of their international politics, but if I were to write a novel. . . .
Richard, thanks for the Japanese url--it's very useful. And thank you, Helen, not only for the Slavic references (which have given me a Nacky Notion), but also for the kind words about *Porcelain Dove* and "Rosamund and Alexander." That story takes place in the deep history of Ellen Kushner's *Swordspoint* world, which is one of the subjects of the novel we wrote together, *The Fall of the Kings,* which is coming out in November from Bantam. Just in case you might be interested (she said somewhat shamefacedly). I do hope you come to New Paltz next year. I'd love to meet you.
You've all been wonderful. I'm a SurLaLune convert for sure, and will venture to offer an opinion when I have one.
Gratefully yours,
Delia
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Helen
Registered User
(9/13/02 9:31:02 am)
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The Fall of the Kings ...
Dear Delia:
Actually, I'm lucky enough to have seen one of the advance copies of _The Fall of the Kings_ (I interned at Tor this summer, and started reviewing for NYRSF ... people almost came to blows over just *who* would get to review it). I think that it's one of the most beautiful pieces of literature, fantastic or otherwise, that I've ever come across. You and Ellen manage to perfectly capture, not just the magic of myth, but also the enchantments of academia; those tennuous elements that keep us all, scholars, authors, essayists, and hobbyists, in willing thrall to our subject matter. I very much hope that I'll be able to catch one of the readings that you have planned this fall ...
Best,
Helen
P.S. - I won't be allowed to plot out my own courses for a bit, but I'm already planning a class on The Study of Magic after having read _The Fall of the Kings_ (syllabus to include _The Fall of the Kings_, _A College of Magics_, and Pamela Dean's _Tam Lin_, for starters). Since patience has never been one of my virtues, I think that I'm going to send a proposal to either ICFA or WisCon for a panel on the same topic ... thanks for the inspiration!
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Delia
Unregistered User
(9/15/02 9:22:56 am)
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Wow
Well, you certainly made my day--and Ellen's, too. Thank you so much. I look forward to the panel, either at ICFA or at Wiscon, or even at both. Other books that spring to mind are Jane Yolen's "Wizard's Hall," TH White's "The Sword in the Stone," and (of course) "A Wizard of Earthsea." But that's another subject. Maybe we should start a new discussion?
DS
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Helen
Registered User
(9/17/02 11:33:22 am)
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Excellent thought ...
Dear Delia:
As they say, the truth will out - it's only a matter of time until every critical forum out there says something along the same lines. Also, excellent advice on both counts, both regarding additional works, and where to best disucuss them ... so, into the fray ...
Best,
Helen
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(9/18/02 6:02:47 am)
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the melting pot and indigenes
Hi, Delia,
Coming late to this thread -- are you interested in any indigenous spirit beings, or only immigrants?
Not that I can do a whole lot for you where the eastern woodlands are concerned. Manhattan and vicinity would be Algonquian, while upstate, of course, is Iroquoian, entirely separate linguistically, somewhat distinct culturally. The Algonquian groups around Manhattan were disintegrated and dispersed early during colonization, but you could fudge with relatives such as Ojibwa or Abenaki or Delaware. Lots of fun stuff, animate rocks and underwater panthers and talking thunder, and some little people, too. My fallback for areas I'm not up to snuff on is always the bibliography of the HANDBOOK OF NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS (in multiple volumes; you'd be looking for the NORTHEAST).
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Nalo
Registered User
(9/18/02 11:23:58 am)
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Re: the melting pot and indigenes
Underwater panthers? How perfectly wonderful!
-nalo
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