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Author
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Comment
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(6/19/02 8:14:18 am)
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Tales of curiosity and Bluebeard
First of all, Hi from Scotland!
I'm fairy new here with posting, even though I've been reading along with the discussions for quite some time. I think that this website is great and it has given me lots of insightful ideas to guide me along my current current postgraduate studies in Grimms' fairy tales.
Currently I am working on Bluebeard tales and other related tales of curiosity, primarily in Germany during the time that the Grimms had lived. I am looking not only at the tales that depict female curiosity, but those that depict male curiosity, as well. Furthermore, I am desperately trying to find such tales by woman authors, as well, and not just those by the good old Grimm Brothers. Is anyone familiar with any such tales of curiosity which deal with either male or female protagonists AND that were written by a woman? (circa 1790-1860)
Thanks so very much in advance if anyone can give me any leads.
Cheers!
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/19/02 9:11:39 am)
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Re: Tales of curiosity and Bluebeard
YM,
Of course, even the Bros. Grimm's stories were revisions on older tales. You'll certainly find women at their sources, but it won't be in your time frame, but rather earlier, in the French salons, from which many if not most of these tales emerged.
In terms of the curiosity factor, you could follow something like "The Robber Bridegroom" from its inception right up to present day as an example of a curiosity tale with enormous influence.
Greg
P.S. Had to add, that's one of the all time great typos on this board, I think: "I'm fairy new here" is just wonderful. Don't edit it.
Edited by: Gregor9 at: 6/19/02 9:12:53 am
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Astolot
Registered User
(6/19/02 11:17:05 am)
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Re: Tales of curiosity and Bluebeard
I'm working on choosing a fairy tale for a final in one of my film classes. We have to write a "fractured fairytale" script, meaning somehow modernize the fairytale, whether by time period, theme or characterization.
I've *think* chosen Bluebeard (since everyone seems to be taking the easy route of Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc.) and I'm just starting my research on curiosity fairytales, hoping to put many different aspects into my script.
I'd be happy to share anything I find with you.
Christie
(also brand new here!)
Edited by: Astolot at: 6/19/02 11:18:10 am
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/19/02 12:40:28 pm)
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Re: Tales of curiosity and Bluebeard
../../../bluebeard/index.html
and
http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/boardarchives/2002/mar2002/blubeard_pg1.html
might be of some use to you here on the board, too.
GF
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Laura
Registered User
(6/19/02 9:41:27 pm)
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Blackwell
Jeannine Blackwell, who posts on this board, authored the book _The Queen's Mirror: Fairy Tales by German Women, 1780-1900_. That ought to fit your bill, I hope.
Laura S.
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(6/20/02 1:39:41 am)
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Re: Blackwell
Thanks everyone for your help! And yeah, the Queen's Mirror looks like it would be a VERY helpful book for me! Thank you so much!! I've been saved, because maybe now I'll find just what have been searching for! Actually, I had been planning on spending my summer endlessly sifting through archives and dusty old book shelves, but now I might be able to go outdoors more to enjoy the nice Scottish rain!
Oh, of all the places to study I've chosen the place with the dreariest
weather- but maybe that is why I had also chosen to work on fairy
tales, as well. In order to keep my spirits up!
But back to folktales by women, up until now I had mainly only been able to find the works by Beneditke Naubert, and I know that she didn't make it known until several years before her death that she was a woman. And I am actually beginning to wonder: HOW MANY other women were ALSO reluctant to make it known that they were women?! Hmmm... that might be something to look in to. Who knows, maybe I've had what I've been looking for right in front of me, but I may not know it.
Cheers!
Katie
Edited by: Yellow McMaggie at: 6/20/02 1:43:31 am
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(6/20/02 3:04:31 am)
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Scotland
And what part of Scotland are you in? I live part time in St. Andrews and find the weather invigorating.
Jane
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(6/20/02 5:08:18 am)
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Re: Scotland
I am currently living in Glasgow. Actually, I also find the rainy
weather to be rather enjoyable at times, for example in the Highlands
and when there is mist surrounding all the castles. It creates the
most fantastic mood! However, I just don't get that same feeling
in the Glasgow city centre!
I haven't been to St. Andrews yet, but I picture it to have more of a "Scottish atmosphere" about it. Wow, how lucky you are! Sure Glasgow is great, but I always enjoy getting out into the countryside (even if it means going out in the worst weather!) This summer I am going up to Wester-Ross and the Isle of Lewis for a while and I can't wait! I just love Celtic folklore and history!
I am currently doing a PhD programme at the University of Glasgow,
and it lasts for 36 months straight with no real break between.
So, it will be great to "escape" this summer for a while,
because I am starting to feel like Rapunzel the way that I am locked
up in the library all the time!
Katie
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Helen
Registered User
(6/20/02 7:58:29 am)
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Re: Scotland
You might also look into the work of Caroline de la Motte Fouquet - her husband was the author of _Undine_. Her own work in literary fairy tales was disparaged by contemporary critics (as were those of many of her fellow female authors). They're very surreal, but quite lovely, and from what I remember, several of them do deal with issues of masculine/feminine curiousity. There's a biography - it's out of print, but you should be able to find it on ABE or bibliofind. When I first came across an oblique reference to her, my initial connection was to A.S. Byatt's _Possession_ - I thought that she'd reimagined a historical scenario directly. In truth, she adapted considerably, and the parallels between fact and fiction are fascinating.
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(6/21/02 7:01:43 am)
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Caroline de la Motte Fouque
Thanks! I'll look into that! I may have to do a dreaded Interlibary loan- which means I may have the books in about 2-3 months from now, but hey, it might be worth it! It sounds as though she might be very helpful in my research and I've also found bits about her on the internet. So thanks, Helen, for the great lead!!
Cheers!
Katie
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Karen
Unregistered User
(6/27/02 4:55:16 pm)
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Damn!
See what happens when you go away for a while?
Hi Katie!
I've actually been looking into the curiosity topic myself as a subtheme in my thesis, although probably from quite a different angle. I've been getting into the whole museums/collecting subject. There's a really wonderful book by Barbara Benedict- Curiosity : a cultural history of early modern inquiry- which would be great for cultural context. Also, there's another story you probably know already called "The Castle of Murder" (Someone please correct me if I have the title wrong). It's an interesting variation on the Bluebeard plot.
Best,
Karen.
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(6/28/02 1:07:13 am)
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Curiosity
Karen,
Thanks! That book on curiosity sounds great! I'll need to check it out! It is great to see other people who are doing similar things. Curiosity is also my subtheme in my thesis, however, I am mainly looking at the narrative voice and archetypes. I am familiar with a tale called "Castle of Murder", which appeared in one of the Grimms' collections of tales under the title "Das Mordschloss" before it was eliminated because of its Dutch origins and similarities to Perrault's Bluebeard (even though I find it to be strikingly similar to the Robberbride Groom, which the Grimms HAD included in their collections). Hmmm... I wonder if this variant of the Castle of Murder is the same one that you are referring to.
Cheers!
Katie
Edited by: Yellow McMaggie at: 6/28/02 1:10:17 am
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/1/02 3:12:17 pm)
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castle
Hi Katie.
Yes, that's the one I meant. I was wondering what period you're primarily focused on and if you're coming at this from a literature/folkloric/Germanic studies/Cultural Studies/? background.
Apologies for not replying earlier- I'm in exam marking hell!
Karen.
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(7/3/02 5:12:07 am)
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Re: castle
Karen,
Well, I am looking at this topic from a wide variety of backgrounds! However, I am specifically focusing on the time frame in which the Grimm Brothers lived. I am also looking at the socio-cultural context of Germany during this period- and then there are bits of Jungian studies and pedagogical aspects in my research. Those are just SOME of the points, but I recently had to give a huge progress presentation in front of the entire German dept. at the university so that actually went quite well.
I don't start teaching at the university until next year, if I am lucky- but maybe I might also be lucky because I DON'T HAVE to worry about all that extra stress! Hmmm... It just all depends on funding.
Cheers,
Katie
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zeppelin42
Registered User
(7/3/02 8:59:55 am)
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women fairytale-tellers
"HOW MANY other women were ALSO reluctant to make it known that they were women?! "
I know it is documented for a fact that the Grimms took some of their tales from female friends and relatives. Maybe this is the case with some of the collections by men. I know, for example, that Bartok made recordings of music by women, even though it is not always noticeable (i.e. when they play the drums). It was not always deemed necessary to document this sort of thing. Your searching might be fruitful staying on the beaten path. Who knows how many tales collected by men were actually told by women? Just a suggestion.
Good luck!
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/3/02 2:56:59 pm)
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depts
Hello again Katie.
Sorry- I didn't mean to be reductive. I was just curious about what dept you might be in (I thought German) and also your focal period. I'm in an English department. Congratulations on your presentation!
Teaching's really not so stressful. I was actually quite suprised by how much I liked it. The main thing is that it consumes so much of your time- marking is especially arduous, particularly when it's the first year level. It also makes me realise how classical my education has been- so there's a process of adaptation on the teacher's part as well.
What I think is really interesting is not only the fact that the Grimms used predominantly female informants but also the fact that these were educated women, who, to some extent, foiled the Grimms' nationalist project with their knowledge of the literate tradition (Perrault, etc)- which is quite different from the popular image of the female storyteller.
karen.
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(7/4/02 1:24:06 am)
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women collectors
Zeppelin and Karen,
Hi, I agree and I know that the Grimms had taken much of their tales from educated women of French origin, and it is a fairy tale in and of itself that the Grimms had actually gone out amongst the peasants to collect the tales.
However, what I find interesting is that the Grimms had destroyed all of their original manuscripts, minus the ones that they had given to Clemens Brentano in 1810 and which had later been found. It is so fascinating to compare the 1810 manuscripts with the final 1857 edition of the tales, because so many changes have been made. (of course tales were also eliminated and added during the course of the 7 editions of the collection, but these too, were also subjected to the Grimms' notorious editorial changes).
I agree, Karen, that these female informants foiled the Grimms' nationalist project to preserve the Germanic folk culture, but that the Grimms eventually removed several of the obvious tales from their collection which were similar to Perrault's tales. (such as the tale "Bluebeard" which only appeared in the 1812 edition of their collection) But yeah, who is to say that the tales that they kept are still "German" and not "French"?
However, while doing a comparison between the first appearance of each tale to its final appearance, it is interesting to note all of the changes that they have made to the tales. Not only did many of the tales double or triple in length, but sometimes they changed the whole point and meaning to the tales. It is as though these female informants provided an outline for the Grimms to follow and the Grimms only filled in the gaps. So even if the informants were female, didn't these tales then ultimately acquire a "male voice"?
One great book is John Ellis's "One Fairy Story too Many". I was quite skeptical of the book in the beginning, because I wasn't too keen to read about someone "Grimm Bashing", but the book was fascinating and he does a wonderful job discussing this topic.
I totally love the Grimms and I believe that they had the best of
intentions but we'll never know what actually went on in those wee
heads of theirs. When I started working on my Ph.D. my topic was
the Grimms: An echo of the Voice of the Folk, because I hoped to
be able to save their reputation and uncover aspects of their tales
which actually had derived from the peasant culture. Well, no one
might ever be able to prove that, so I gave up trying to be a hero
and I've left my curiosity with looking into Bluebeard. That's enough
for me.
Karen, yeah, teaching is wonderful isn't it? Even though I don't teach any undergrad courses at the university yet, I have taught at a German summer immersion camp for kids, and I taught high school kids for credit. The equivalent of one whole year of German in 4 weeks! The only time that I got to plan and grade their work was when the kids were in bed and so I am still recovering from that! But it made me fall in love with teaching, because it is so rewarding.
Well, I can talk on and on for ages, so I better stop here.
Katie
Edited by: Yellow McMaggie at: 7/4/02 1:27:31 am
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/7/02 4:44:06 pm)
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useful knowledge
Hi Katie,
Sorry I'm answering your posts so late!- my life is a little hectic right now.
I really am fascinated by what you say above about the differences in manuscripts and so on. Not being able to read German, many of my opinions about the Grimms are largely assumptions- I don't think of them as propagating the untarnished voice of a folk culture any more than I think Perrault or Basile do. Mediation is inevitable. I am interested in hearing more about what exactly the Grimms' reputation is among German scholars. Of course, to set out to find the German zeitgeist is to beg the question, as you have to have certain ideas about what that spirit might be in order to make the initial classifications.
One of the most interesting changes the Grimms made, I think, is the omission of Wilhelm's extensive notes from later editions- they were published separately from the 2nd ed on, I think I remember. This is especially interesting in terms of the subject of curiosity/inquiry. IN the nineteenth century, you have that notion of "rational entertainment" (Was it as strong in Germany as it was in England?). Edward Lane's translation of The Arabian Nights, for instance, was published by the Society for the Diffusion of Useful Knowledge as part of a serious entitled 'The Library of Entertaining Knowledge'. With Lane, you have a similar situation- copious notes, which were frequently pared down or omitted entirely or published separately in many later editions. You can't allow yourself to simply enjoy the fantasy- you have to have some sort of intellectual justification- so what happens when that justification is stripped away?
Karen (btw, if you want to discuss any of these subjects off the board, my email is kdal1127@mail.usyd.edu.au ).
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/10/02 12:42:07 pm)
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Re: useful knowledge
Karen,
Lane, like Burton, revised the texts as he saw fit, and so his notes, as is the case with Burton, are often far more interesting--and reliable--than his actual translation. He was bowdlerizing as he translated, much as the Grimms were doing in reprint editions. The gloss in such books is sometimes more entertaining, too, not merely for the intellectual pursuit. I find the same to be true with Somadeva's Ocean of Story. In the 10-volume English translation of it I've found great bits of information in the gloss as well as in the story. (Some notes make the story comprehensible, others are stories on their own.)
In the end it's probably impossible to catch every nuance, every change that was made in manuscripts and editions. For that matter, how accurate was the Grimm's initial volume of tales--how much had they tinkered with orally transmitted tales before they were set down in the first place? Eventually, I think you end up with a kind of Heisenbergian quandary regarding to what degree the collector of tales alters the tales just in the process of setting them down. Does the natural oral evolution stop dead in that moment? Or does it continue until a later collector sets down the evolved story again and the two can be compared? And that's if neither collector makes a conscious effort to "protect" readers from elements they deem harmful, which the Grimms did in subsequent editions, and Lane certainly did in translating Sharazad's tales.
Greg
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/10/02 8:24:23 pm)
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Notes
Hi Greg.
While I do appreciate thet both Lane and Burton had their own agendas and, certainly, Lane did bowdlerise his translation, I would still maintain that Lane's notes function in a very different way to Burton's- especially when you consider the question of audience. Lane's initial audience probably wasn't as interested in his notes as the "elite" gentlemen subscribers were in Burton's- in Burton, the translation can at times seem like a thinly veiled justification for the notes and the terminal essay. While there are undoubtedly many fascinating notes in Lane, they hardly have the same titilation value as Burton's discussion of pederestry, for instance. Lane's notes are "rational entertainment", Burton's are not. Subsequently, I think there's an important shift in emphasis.
I think with the process of recording oral tales, you inevitably run into similar issues as translators do. An English translation of a German novel isn't the original novel, it's a collaboration- the translator's art as much as the author's. The literate recording of an oral tale doesn't halt the evolution of an oral narrative dead in its tracks- it participates in that evolution. There's nothing to stop an oral storyteller from reworking the print text and nothing to stop a later collector from reworking that reworking. Chinese boxes.
karen.
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William
Saxton
Registered User
(7/12/02 6:21:51 am)
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Women and men
...so, I believed Patricia McKillip's complaint that fairy tales were mostly about men, with passive women; but when I was looking for something addressing boys fighting wicked witches, I found that the popular ones, at least, are mostly about female protagonists.
Snow White
Cinderella
Snow White and Rose Red
Bluebeard
Goldilocks
Little Red Riding-Hood
Beauty and the Beast
v.
Jack the Giant-Killer
with a few in equal pairs:
Hansel and Gretel
Brother and Sister
Now, I'm not about to want to redress this criminal imbalance; I
just think it's interesting. Theories? I also note that in both
the "equal pairs" tales listed, it's the girl that takes
the decisive action...?!
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