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Author
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Comment
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Karen
Unregistered User
(3/21/02 1:56:08 pm)
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Sorry
Dear Sonia,
I did get your email, yes. Sorry I haven't had the chance to reply in sufficient detail yet- I've been a little snowed under, mostly with teaching but also writing- I tend to fall behind in my life around mid-week of late. Funnily enough, the classes are on Frankenstein next week.
I will reply soon. Once again, apologies for the delay.
Jeff, I like your post and I'll respond to it properly once I've had a chance to catch my breath!
Karen.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/21/02 3:02:33 pm)
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Re: Horror
Hi Jeff, thanks for your message. I have the essay on David Lynch on my e-mail system, so if you want to e-mail me with your e-mail address, I'll e-mail the article to you. My e-mail address is: sonia.riyait@ntlworld.com
I'm afraid I can't agree with you that a story can't be considered a horror story if it doesn't have any supernatural elements in it! The horror genre as we know it is a hybrid of many other genres: science fiction, suspense, thriller and I would argue, the fairy tale. So yes, there's an overlap between the genres. But the serial killer sub-genre fits into the category of horror precisely because it reflects very real concerns that face human beings on a day to day basis: for women, it could be the fear of being stalked, raped and murdered. No supernatural element exists in the horror 'stories' we hear on television when events such as these have occurred. A film like Hitchcock's Psycho was considered the first 'true' horror film for many critics of the genre, because it removed the element of supernaturalism from its narrative: Norman is a seemingly unassuming-looking young man who just happens to be a cross-dressing serial killer (as is Buffalo Bill in The Silence of the Lambs) - and could just as well exist stalking the streets today whilst you and I are watching the latest slasher film. I would argue that the stories that are most horrorific - horror stories - are devoid of a supernatural element, because they introduce the flip side to your argument: if Michael Myers and Jason can never be killed, we can be killed and consequently, no supernatural element will save us. I'm not saying that I don't find films like Halloween and Friday the 13th frightening or disturbing - they scared the life out of me when I watched them for the very first time! But I find the latest offerings of slashers like the Scream trilogy and I Know What you Did Last Summer etc., a little tiresome and 'samey.' These films are self-conscious parodies of Halloween and Friday the 13th - strictly speaking, that does not make them 'horror' films. These films are directed towards fans of the horror genre who know the 'formula' of successful horror flicks like Halloween etc. eg: never have sex because you'll be murdered soon after, never answer the phone whilst alone at home etc. These 'rules' of the 'horror' film are reiterated in the first Scream film, reinforcing their parodic nature.
As for the so-called morality of horror films, Angela Carter's short story 'The Company of Wolves' on which Neil Jordan's film is based on, and which Carter also co-wrote, has LRRH opting to do a strip trease before her wolfish companion before getting into bed with him and staying there. She acknowledges her coming of age in terms of accepting her budding sexuality. LRRH is not as innocent, or as moral, as she may have you believe: after all, what kind of a girl deliberately chooses to ignore her mother and grandmother's advice about not straying off the path, talking to strange men whose eyebrows meet in the middle, telling the 'wolf' where her grandmother's house is, knowing that the wolf will reach it before she will? LRRH doesn't exactly mourn the loss of her grandmother in the film does she? Instead, she disrobes (contrary to her grandmother's advice) and kisses the wolf. She then opts to turn her back on 'civilised' society as represented by her family (mother included) and makes an autonomous decision to stay with her wolf. He, after all, represents freedom, sexuality, savagery: no wonder LRRH is so eager to join him to escape the social, emotional and physicial restraints represented by the small (get the metaphor?) village. If we were to accept the idea that films like Scream are morality tales, it would be a twisted sense of morality that they are preaching. Sydney is not killed after having sex: instead, she becomes more resourceful as a result, more independent and less afraid of her male stalkers. Are we really all going to die as soon as we have sex? (AIDS is another issue...) I hope not, otherwise I would have been dead a long, long time ago! But anyway...
You're right in that Burton's film is fairy tale-like, but his vision of this fairy-tale is dark, full of mystery, treachery, intrigue and so on. A lot of people who I've shown the film to liken it to fairy tale, but also a horror film. And because horror, fantasy and fairy tales are interlinked anyway, the analogy seems logical.
Having said all that, the supernatural in horror does give it a certain edge: The Blair Witch Project has a supernatural element in it in the form of the unseen witch (perhaps a witch, perhaps not), unexplainable events and black magic etc. So too does the fairy tale. But I don't think we're meant to take the supernatural element in the film too seriously. I think the supernatural is being used to point out the film's fairy tale-like narrative - but conversly, focuses our attention to the 'real' concerns in the film and therefore, in Western society (that sounds really general doesn't it? Apologies, but I can't think of a better phrase at this time of the night). Removed of the trappings of materialism, consumerism, postmodern technology etc. how resourceful are we as human beings when plunged into an archaic existence? Hansel and Gretel had to fight the witch and find their own way back without the help of a compass and a map, so why can't Heather and her companions? Have we been brainwashed into thinking that we are indestructible as a human race, super-intelligent because of our invention of vapid technology? The film's emphasis on myths at the beginning of the film is not only a test of Heather et al's fortitude when faced with circumstances beyond their rational control, but also a reinforcement of the power of myth itself: fairy tales and myths may be branded 'child-like,' 'supernatural' and 'fantastic,' but they invite frighteningly real responses from the film's protagonists: aren't we all a little afraid of their predicament? I'd be going out of my mind if I found myself lost in a wood - and I wouldn't necessarily have to be hunted by anything - it would be the intensity of the fear I'd be feeling at knowing I was completely, hopelessly lost with no means of help in sight.
Anyway, I'm going to shut my mouth now. But thanks for your initial message, and feel free to respond.
Sonia.
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catja1
Registered User
(3/23/02 10:14:34 pm)
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horror
This is a fascinating thread! Sonia and Karen, I feel your pain; I'm working on a PhD as well, writing my dissertation on fairy tale retellings for young adults. Good luck to both of you! Anyway, I wanted to mention a couple books you might find interesting -- you may know them already, but if not, they might prove useful: Maria Tatar's _Lustmord_ (representations of sex murder in the films and culture of Weimar Germany, with an extensive discussion of _M_); Janet langlois, _Belle Gunness: The Lady Bluebeard_ (a historical serial killer, and her impact on community folklore, both story and song); and Todorov's _The Fantastic_ (great work of genre theory).
Catja
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/25/02 1:41:15 pm)
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Re: horror
Hi Catja, thanks for posting your message on the board and I'm glad you find the discussions interesting! I had no idea so many people would respond to my comments! I've already read Todorov's The Fantastic and I agree, it is a fascinating read and I have heard of Maria Tatar's other works, but have yet to read the particular book you mentioned - but thanks for your other tips! I'll definitely follow them up.
So you're feeling the pain of embarking on a research PhD are you?! Me and Karen have had lengthy moans about the pain we share and I have no doubt you feel it too! Your research sounds really interesting: what fairy tales are you looking at in particular? Are you considering revisionist fairy tales such as the Angela Carter's work as well? I'd be interested in hearing your views on fairy tale horror if you have any. Let me know how things go with your research. Good luck!
Sonia.
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Laura
Registered User
(3/26/02 11:00:16 pm)
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Nakata Hideo's Ring
Sonia,
As I see you talk about the Japanese movie Ring, I thought I would pass this along. This past weekend, I was on a conference panel with Eric White, who presented on this very film. I know I was fascinated! He's on faculty at U Colorado – Boulder, I believe. Here’s the site for the conference:
www.iafa.org
You might try to get in touch with him.
Laura Scheuer
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Laura
Registered User
(3/26/02 11:13:23 pm)
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Ring
just found his email:
Eric.white@nospam.colorado.edu
Minus the no spam part, of course.
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cloudshaper
Registered User
(3/27/02 2:08:02 am)
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Re: Nakata Hideo's Ring
www.somrux.com/ringworld/
very interesting film, you might check out Cronenberg's "Videodrome" too, similar idea in some ways.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/27/02 5:33:09 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Sonia,
Sorry to be so long replying.
Yes, I am *that* Gregory Frost. It's a fair cop, but Ms. Windling is to blame. And Ms. Datlow as well.
Greg
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/27/02 12:51:21 pm)
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Re: Nakata Hideo's Ring
Hi Laura, thanks for the tip! I'll definitely check out the site.
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/27/02 12:53:28 pm)
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Re: Nakata Hideo's Ring
Thanks - I'll check out Videodrome!
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/27/02 1:14:35 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Well hello Mr. Frost! Now I can finally say that I know a well-known writer! I've always found the Rapunzel tale to be one of the darkest fairy tales I've read and I love the psychological depth to it: an older woman who craves possession and power over somebody else, and a child who rebels against her enforced prison. Are you familiar with Tanith Lee's reworking of Rapunzel entitled The Golden Rope?
Why did you decide that you wanted to retell Rapunzel by adding a darkly sexual element to the tale? I know that the fairy tale is sexual anyway, and I love the psychological dimension you give to Mother Gothel and Rapunzel, but what were your reasons for wanting to retell the this particular tale in the first place?
Hpe you don't mind me asking you these questions, but I found your version of the tale fascinating and would very much like to hear your views on its retelling.
Thanks!
Sonia.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/27/02 1:49:07 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Sonia,
No, I don't mind answering. I chose "Rapunzel" when Terri Windling and Ellen Datlow first approached me to write a story for the first volume of their fairy tale series. The reasons I chose it were: a) I'd just read a book of poems by Anne Sexton, and her Rapunzel poem knocked me over. b) I was also reading Jack Zipes' edition of The Complete Brothers Grimm, and in the notes to Rapunzel he discussed the original version of it, which appeared in the first edition of Grimms, and the bowdlerized version that took its place in all subsequent editions, and it appealed to me to have the opportunity to put the sexual content back in a fairy tale that had been stripped of it almost immediately after appearing.
The shape of it made itself known as I started thinking about it: the 3 parts, 3 characters, 3 viewpoints. So that's what I went with. I wasn't then aware of the Tanith Lee, but had read a good deal of Angela Carter, and I'm sure her experiments with fairy tales weighed in, too.
You're right that it's a dark tale, and one that can withstand many retellings and variations. I'm extremely fond of Donna Jo Napoli's novel version, ZEL, too.
Best,
Greg
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/27/02 1:53:47 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
You're wonderful Greg! Thank you SO MUCH!!
Sonia.
xxx
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jane yolen
Unregistered User
(3/27/02 2:59:04 pm)
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Rapunzel
My daughter, who is an adoptive mom, has a much different take on Rapunzel. As you can imagine.
As does Emma Donoghue.
Jane
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/28/02 5:54:26 am)
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Re: Rapunzel
And Bettelheim, in one of the few topics of his that interest me, mentions a child who'd been raised by his grandmother and who, upon hearing the story, considered Mother Gothel to be a nice character.
Jane's comment raises the whole step-mother/adoptive mother aspect of the fairy tale, which I know has been covered in many other topics, but which continues to interest me--both because I just dealt with how to treat a step-mother in my Bluebeard novel, and because I'm adopted myself.
Greg
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Kate
Unregistered User
(3/28/02 3:20:04 pm)
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Rapunzel
Greg,
Are you referring to the chapter on Rapunzel in Zipe's FAIRYTALE AS MYTH, MYTH AS FAIRYTALE? Just curious if there's another piece by him on the tale. The new novel I'm working on is based on spinning tales, somewhat (though it's about a patternmaker in the 21st century) and I need to read as much as I can.
I am embarrassed that I have not read your Rapunzel version. But now, now I WILL! By the way, I may email you at some point about an earlier brief exchange we had on television stuff. But, later on in the spring . . . if that's okay.
Kate
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Kate
Unregistered User
(3/28/02 3:23:04 pm)
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MUST DRINK COFFEE!
Wow, what a case of mistaken identity. You said "Rapunzel" and I wrote "Rapunzel" and I was thinking, in my head, "Rumpelstiltskin."
Please excuse one idiot!
Best,
Kate
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Gregor9
Registered User
(4/1/02 5:38:08 am)
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Re: MUST DRINK COFFEE!
Kate,
Not a problem. The tales can run together even without the lack of caffeine. And feel free to email on the other question anytime. Email is listed in the personal info.
Greg
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sonia789
Registered User
(4/1/02 2:17:13 pm)
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Re: Rapunzel
Jane, sorry for the delay in replying to your message. Would you be willing to share what your thoughts, or rather your daughter's thoughts on Rapunzel are, especially in the light of her being an adoptive mum? Does she see the figure of the adoptive mother as a positive character? How does she interpret the fairy tale?
Thanks for your time,
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(4/1/02 2:23:28 pm)
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Re: Ring
Laura, just to thank you once again for giving me Eric's email address. I emailed him last week and you're right, his discussion on Nakata's Ring is fascinating! He's given me lots of useful ideas to follow up!
Sonia.
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