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Author
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Comment
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/11/02 3:02:40 am)
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Fairy Tales and Horror
Hi! I'm currently embarking on a PhD, researching the relationship between literary fairy tales and the cinematic American, Japanese and European horror film within a social, cultural and political context. Does anybody have any opinions on the so-called 'fantastical' nature of fairy tales ie. are they escapist narratives, or do they provide entry into an alternative world which doesn't so much offer psychological 'comfort' as such, but a confrontation with repressed anxieties and/or fears? My opinion is of the latter, and I believe that more and more horror films are appropriating fairy tale narratives into their own storytelling so as to de-sanitize literary fairy tales and present them in 'pure' form: as narratives which have at the heart of them a horror typology. After all, 'Little Red Riding Hood' has rape and violence at its central narrative strategy - and is one of the most widely read and popular fairy tales to date.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/11/02 8:12:18 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Sonia,
Well, babbling as a twisted horror/fantasy writer, I'd probably take the position that there are points of commisure between the two forms but they aren't parallel forms--not that that's what you're saying necessarily. Horror seems to me by definition to be the fiction of violation. And certainly--as with "Little Red Riding Hood"--you can find that element in fairy tales, sometimes embedded, sometimes in your face. But fairy tales aren't *all* about violation, and thus my position that you have two forms that share multiple elements, tropes, themes.
Horror is only recently a genre--only in the past 30 years. Before that, and more traditionally, it's an effect, and even works of great literature strove achieve it (Henry James, Elizabeth Bowen, Isak Dinesen, et. al.). In fact, horror's maybe the only genre that started out as "legitimate" literature and subsequently degenerated. I'd agree, too, that horror fiction (broadly incorporating dark fantasy) does borrow from fairy tales, using them as templates, incorporating their elements into the body of the story. Jonathan Carroll, for example, has done this numerous times in novels that straddle the fantasy/mainstream literature fence. But any number of writers who turn up on these boards, such as Jane Yolen and Midori Snyder, can probably argue that they've worked with elements of fairy tale and horror in their fictions. I've recently completed a novel for Tor Books that is very consciously a combination of these two forms, and they got along very comfortably.
As fairy tales predate the gothic antecedents of contemporary horror, I also wonder if the case can be made connecting them to, say, "The Castle of Otranto."
Musing away now,
GF
Edited by: Gregor9 at: 3/11/02 8:20:22 am
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/11/02 9:05:23 am)
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Horror and Fairy tales
I am not well versed on what constitutes the "horror" genre in film, but my uneducated opinion is that it has as its foundation films such as Frankenstein and Dracula, which were warnings against man's tinkering scientifically, or otherwise, with the devine. Using this approach to define "horror" I think that there is overlap. Much of literary fairy tales are morally, politcally or otherwise expousing certain forms of behavior. While they use the fantastic to do so, there is often a message of virtouse behaviour buried into the story. Little Red Ridinghood, for instance, is a story warning of following the true path, not being side-tracked with temptations.
Modern "horror" films, which follow a pattern of something other than just slash and gore (which I would heartily differentiate with true horror genre) often contain similar messages. Gregor, I am not sure whether you would agree with me here. I would love your feedback.
One story I think that has strong elements of both fairy tale and horror is the Hunchback of Notre Dame. While the Disneyized version sanitizes the hunchback into a loveable creature, he does have horrible tendencies in both the original film and the book. Still, it has elements of Beauty and the Beast as well.
Just some thoughts.
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/11/02 10:12:32 am)
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An additional thought
Where I stated the word "devine" earlier, one might add the word "satanic" as well. The Blair Witch Project falls squarely into this category.
Jess
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/12/02 2:46:43 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Hi Gregor, thanks for your thoughts - they were very interesting! I would certainly agree that gothic antecedents of contemporary horror such as The Castle of Otranto borrow from both fairy tales and horror, and part of my PhD will focus on early literature that incorporates both elements. I'm actually of the opinion that fairy tales have within them elements of horror anyway, and that the contemporary horror film in attempting to visually convey the horror in them without the excess sugar-coating they are so often lumbered with. Because I was just wondering why so many horror films are adopting a fairy tale-like typography into their narratives: films like the Japanese Ring, its sequel (Hansel and Gretel), Snow White; A Tale of Terror, Lord of the Rings - which uses a gothic/horror context in which to place its narrative. I believe that horror films are attempting to become 'mythic' in a sense by adopting fairy tale-like stories: what better way is there to ensure a genre's popularity than borror another genre's universally successful formula? Love to hear what you think....
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(3/12/02 7:35:33 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
It's possible that there is a trend toward horror films co-opting the mythic appeal of fairy tales, but I'm wondering how much of this is an artifact of the source material rather than any kind of artistic movement. For a movie you need source material. For someone bent on making a horror film, fairy-tales as source material have an inherent appeal, in that many of the events as described in the tales are horrific in and of themselves: a girl murdered and her bones turned into a harp, a woman given hot-iron shoes so she'll dance herself to death, blindings, dismemberments...the list is fairly long. In a fairy-tale context these events, while horrific, are not necessarily the crux of the story, yet it wouldn't take much to make them so.
Ellen Datlow elsewhere has defined horror as a "mood" as much as a story form, and I tend to agree. It only takes a change in emphasis to turn many fairy-tales into horror stories. Or films. What we're seeing might be an artifact of convenience. Just a thought.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/12/02 9:54:07 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Sonia,
To an extent I'm in Richard's camp--that is, I don't believe there's a conscious artistic movement going on in the horror film genre, so much as I think multiple factors are influencing or informing it. Ideas and influences are in the air and those writing films are picking up on various elements, the same way that writers of the fiction do. There's probably a cold, marketing strategy involved: Fantasy fiction outsells science fiction and horror combined, so if you want the thing to be successful, be sure to sprinkle your film liberally with fantasy. But it's surely more than that.
I think the era of the splatter-horror film, as with splatterpunk horror fiction is (thankfully) dead. I'd argue that the fictional subgenre probably did more to kill horror in the literary mainstream than all the bad skulls-with-eyeballs-dripping-gore covers that graced most of those books in the 80s and 90s.
The splatter films themselves, mostly low-budget productions, were shaped by predecesors such as Dario Argento, whose movies were visually flashy, stylish, colorful, but whose storylines most of the time make not a lick of sense. For instance, I love "Suspiria" but I dare anyone to make it comprehensible on anything but a visceral level.
Having exhausted the empty vessel of style, story has to be kicked around again. And now we have a more world-aware cinema than we did in 1980. Chinese films in particular are playing an important part I think in reshaping some of horror. And the Chinese films like "A Chinese Ghost Story" and "Green Snake" and even "Mr. Vampire" have folk and fairy tale elements woven into them. (Granted, many such border on the incomprehensible to Western audiences.) Earlier Japanese films like "Kwaidan" and "Ugetsu" also incorporate fairy tale into the horrific elements. The rise in popularity of the Chinese-fantastic genre of cinema is surely influencing what people are doing with film in general now, and not just horror.
Having spouted all that, I have to wonder how the properly fairy-tale influenced films are culled from the cinema of horror in general. Blair Witch to me has fairy-tale elements in it only by a stretch of what defines fairy-tales. They're lost in the woods, okay--Hansel & Gretel. But piles of stones, and things without form touching the tent, and a lot of screaming and running around don't seem to me to have much to do with fairy tales and a good deal more ot do with running out the clock. "Scream" and "I Saw What You Did Last Summer" and that category of horror--the one that makes most of the big bucks that drive it--are so self-referential that no appreciable link to fairy tales seems legitimate to me.
If, however, you're going backwards to things like Neil Jordan & Angela Carter's lovely if finally disappointing "Company of Wolves", then you have a horror film that emerged OUT of fairy tale rather than being constructed with an eye to, or influenced by, fairy tales. Of those, I don't see that there are all that many about.
Greg
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Karen
Unregistered User
(3/13/02 11:39:57 pm)
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reader response
Hello Sonia
I'm nearing the end of my Phd (I hope, I wist) and I may have some themes in common with you (although I'm not focusing on horror films specifically). With relation to the comments Greg and Richard have made above, I'd have to say that I'm inclined to agree- however, I do believe that you could argue for a more concrete link between the genres if you focused not on some authorial or directorial intent but on the way horror is received- a viewer/reader-response style approach. Are there similarites in the cultural 'work' that each genre performs?
Are you familiar with the work of (photographer) Cindy Sherman? She might be of some use, I suspect. Also, Julia Kristeva's Powers of Horror and Barbara Creed's The Monstruous Feminine might suggest a theoretical framework. If you're interested in the historical development of 'spooks', I reccomend Terry Castle's The Female Thermometer: Eighteenth Century Culture and the Invention of the Uncanny.
Ta,
Karen.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/14/02 7:08:29 am)
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horror
Gregory, Richard and Sonia,
I agree that splatter horror has little to do with fairy tales. I was trying to make a distinction between classic horror, in which there was a clear message, and that genre. The Blair Witch project I think makes a crude attempt to bring back a little of that element (i.e. don't go looking for the satanic) while still using raw emotion to do what did with eloquence. I didn't care for the movie myself and found it indeed a running out the clock type thing, but the message was slightly different than pure and it's "satire" companions, i.e. "Scream" (actually that there was a message other than "don't answer the phone" made it different).
My earlier point was more that I think that the horror genre in American/English films has a long history, which indeed is linked with fairy tales. That if you look at them there not just physical elements that are similar but underlying moral themes that speak the same messages or at least similar ones. If you begin with the earliest of these movies and progress through the 50's and 60's with some of the Edgar Allen Poe adaptations, which have aspects of Blue Beard and other fairy tales in them, and to the present you do have a connection.
I am not familiar with the Chinese movies and so I cannot make a response with respect to those.
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(3/14/02 7:10:18 am)
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Sorry
It seems that about every fourth word was dropped. I hope you get the meaning alright.
Jess
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/14/02 2:59:20 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
I definitely agree with you that slasher films like 'Scream' and 'I saw what you did last summer' have no appreciable link to fairy tales - they don't, they are in a market all their own, are slightly ludicrous but have their own particular cultural appeal and importance to certain audiences. To be honest with you, I haven't really perceived horror as a 'mood' before, more an emotion, a feeling one gets when they are terrified and locked in a dreadful situation one cannot immediately get out of. But the idea is interesting. And I would associate The Blair Witch Project as inspiring some of the same feelings of fear and moods of claustrophobia that the literary fairy tale Hansel and Gretel inspired in me when I read it as a child - and even when I read it now. I think you have to ask yourself why the film inspired the depth of response it did in audienced around the world: any film that was made with a budget of $35,000 and went on to gross over $200 million worldwide is doing more than just running around the clock. The film has inspired the same mood of horror, terror and fear within people by using an analogy to an age-old fairy tale: the link may be subtle - crude even - and certainly the piles of rocks and things touching the tent do not happen in the fairy tale as far as we know, but the fear of being alone in a dark place, cold, hungry, no means of immediate help available to you - and being hunted by someone or something is going to send even the most level-headed person slowly out of their minds. In other words, the film is attempting to tap into our subconscious fears, our pyches, by using a fairy tale-like narrative in which to do this job. And since most people are familiar with these narratives, that is the reason why the film managed to to a such a good job at really scaring people.
What I love about Suspiria is its intense use of bright colour that draws a person into the film - exactly the same technique that Disney uses to draw people in when watching their cartoons. What better way to dupe an audience into a false sense of security, because how could a film as colourful and bright be as horrific as it really is? Isn't this the same technique employed by artists and illustrators of fairy tale books around the world: to use bright colours that saturate a page, educating children that the Little Red Riding Hood's deep red cloak will forever be associated with sex, blood, murder, rape, cannibalism, anger etc.? Suspiria capitalises upon this use of colour and its suggested and suggestive meanings, turning bright colour into something terribly dark and horrific after all.
I agree that there is a cold marketing strategy behind contemporary horror films that are employing the use of fairy tales, myths and legends into their visual storytelling: the first and foremost objective is, as you rightly pointed out, to make money. And any film director, horror film directors included, have to pinch their ideas from somewhere. But directors like Tim Burton, a self-confessed fairy tale lover, are very consciously using fairy tales as a means of telling their horror stories with the intent on inventing a new(ish) sub-genre: fairy tale horror. David Lynch also used a fractured fairy tale narrative for his hugely popular TV series Twin Peaks, and his subequent film, Fire Walk With Me (there is in fact an essay on his use of fairy tales in the series). Even slashers like Candyman and Urban Legend are using myths and legends as a cotext in which to tell their stories. This may just be down to marketing strategies etc, or it could signify something else: the use of fairy tales, myths and legends to breathe new life into a tired genre that was in danger of losing its popularity and cultural 'edge' with audiences.
But enough waffle! Thanks for your thoughts: they are always a delight to read. I'm sure you'll respond to my thoughts...
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/14/02 3:22:24 pm)
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Re: horror
Hi Jess, sorry for not responding to you earlier! Thanks for your comments. I do think that The Hunchback of Notre Dame has a gothic fairy-tale feel to it, and so too does The Phantom of the Opera.
What I find interesting about literary fairy tales and the cinematic horror genre is the way in which the folkloric archetypes of the wolf and witch in fairy tales have found their way into the contemporary horror film. In her book 'No Go the Bogeyman' Marina Warner argues that the wolf in LRRH is the modern-day serial killer reinvented in serial killer film, the witch is the powerful woman, vampire or seductress. They all share a transubstantiation link between them: beastliness and human behaviour are interlinked. 'Monsters' like Dracula make this connection obvious on screen: you only have to watch Francis Ford Coppola's Bram Stoker's Dracula to see a 'man' turn into bat, werewolf, rodent, rat etc. So that's why I think that the horror film owes a lot to fairy tales in terms of the creation of its own genre. But if nothing else, both fairy tales and the horror film love telling stories - fairy tales film very well, film becomes a visual 'literature' of sorts.
Let me know what you think!
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/14/02 4:03:09 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Sorry Richard - I've actually confused you with Gregor (by mistake!)
and though that the horror as 'mood' idea was suggested by him!
A thousand apologies! But anyway, really interesting idea! If you
read the response I've written to Gregor, that pretty much sums
up my feelings about that idea - and my feelings about horror films
that are using a fairy tale and mythic narrative to tell their horror
stories. All films need ideas in order to survive - and to make
a film! - and yes, it is convenient for the horror film to borrow
these very old, well-loved by most literary narratives. But this
borrowing is in itself a conscious ideology rather than just an
artifact of convenience. Why choose fairy tales and myths to provide
a context in which to tell your horror story? Why not another medium?
Slasherfilms stay well clear of this stuff - until recently when
Candyman (1993) Urban Legend (1998) and its sequel appeared. And
there's quite a gap between Candyman and Urban Legend, so that's
not an artificial concept. And certain directors, as I've already
pointed out in my reply to Gregor, openly admit to using fairy tales,
myths and legends in their horror films either because they love
fairy tales and think they have an important part to play in our
society - both educational and otherwise - or, because they believe
that that the relationship between fairy tales and horror is quite
natural. You've already pointed out the horror inherent in fairy
tales, and quite often, it is precisely this horror that people
(children and adults) remember when reading these tales. Watching
a visual representation of the powerful, seductive, very beautiful
wicked step-mother/witch in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs is far
more interesting than watching that drip Snow White prancing around,
chasing after the every whim of seven men and waiting aimlessly
for an equally feckless prince to kiss her and therefore provide
her with a reason to live! Don't you think?! Personally, I think
that the horror in the fairy tales as you've highlighted is the
horror that these films recognise as being at the core of these
tales: why do we want to read a story about a groom who marries
young virgins, tests their obedience and then murders them when
they disobey him? Why do fairy tales and the cinematic horror genre
share an uncommon popularity in their own right? Surely that's not
just coincidence is it? Horror films that use fairy tale narratives
could be latching onto them out of cultural concerns as well. If
fairy tales are 'morality tales' horror films could also be acting
as cultural 'warnings': kids who become dependent upon the technological
trappings of a postmodern era - as in the Japanese film Ring - are
merely broken puppets when placed in a situation that is not hyper-real
ie. devoid of technology, faced with unexplainable situations -
and confronted with the ancient.
These are just some of my thoughts! I'm tired now, so I'm going to get some sleep! But feel free to air your own opinions!
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/14/02 4:16:36 pm)
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Re: reader response
Hi Karen. Congratulations on hearing you're near the end of your PhD: I've only just started mine and the end seems a long, long way off! But the research area is fascinating and I'm enjoying it loads. Thanks for your advice. I'm already familiar with Barbara Creed and Kristeva, but I will definitely follow up your other leads. I'm not familiar with the works of Cindy Sherman, so I'll look into this. I will consider reader/viewer response to both fairy tales and the horror film, especially within a cultural context in my PhD. I think this is an integral part to 'reading' and comprehending both narratives and their relationship to one another. So what exactly is your area or research? Whatever it is sounds really interesting! Would love to hear more about it...
Thanks again,
Sonia.
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Karen
Unregistered User
(3/14/02 10:26:26 pm)
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Re: horror
Hello again Sonia!
Ooooh, that question again- what are you working on? I'm sure you're familiar enough already with how strenously people try to dodge that one. I can't really quantify it in fifteen words or less, as there are so many disparate threads which will probably seem rather discordant if I begin listing them. What I'm principally interested in is representations of the body and I'm using folklore and literature (and some film) which incorporates folklore. However, I'm also interested in using a particular story to structure an intellectual argument- sort of like ficto-criticism and sort of not- sorry to be a bit vague- it's actually in quite an advanced stage and I'll send you a synopsis if you're curious.
Obviously you've already completed a substantial amount of research on your chosen subject, so I'll just list a couple of things which you probably already know about but which may have slipped through the sieve somewhere along the line.
Do you know Tanith Lee's writing? Her Red as Blood or tales from the Sisters Grimmer would be good for your purposes, along with Carter's Bloody Chamber. Also, are you aware of the association in French culture between Gilles de Rais, Joan of Arc's companion of arms turned child-murderer, and Bluebeard? Georges Bataille's work on de Rais is fascinating. And the French also associate Bluebeard with Henri Desire Landru, who swindled and murdered ten women in the late 1910s. Perhaps these bits of trivia might be interesting if you're intending to look at some French cinema- are you focusing on a particular culture?
Karen.
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(3/15/02 9:07:50 am)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
No problem, Sonia, though I want to re-emphasize that it was Ellen Datlow who voiced the "horror is mood" thesis, not me, though I tend to agree with that.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/17/02 3:06:10 pm)
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Re: horror
Hi Karen! I totally agree with you: I try to avoid questions about what my research project is about as much as possible! It sounds easy to define in theory - fairy tales and horror - much it's actually much much deeper than that! Your topic sounds fascinating, and I'd love to read your synopsis if you don't mind. I think that the body is a great subject to base your research on: I briefly covered the body in relation to contemporary serial killer films and their depiction of masculinity in my MA thesis. I argued that the violated bodies of the victims of serial killers stood as 'meta-narratives' conveying a sense of, but not an absolute affirmation of their 'masculinity' - textual body language if you like. And since folklore and folktales are principally concerned with story telling - and cinema focuses upon the body as a textual as well as a visual narrative device - the body is the perfect tool to also tell 'stories.'
I do have Tanith Lee's book Tales from the Sister's Grimmer and am quite familiar with the works of Angela Carter, since we covered a lot of her work during the MA that I did a few years ago - but thanks for mentioning them both! And Bluebeard I know quite well. However, I will chase up your other lead (I have so many leads to chase up I'm forgetting what my original research project is about!) as it sounds really useful. I will be focusing on French films, as my scope is European as much as it is American and Japanese. If you like as well, I can send you a brief synopsis of my research project so far, but I have to admit, my knowledge of French and Italian cinema, and their related cultures is somewhat vague at the moment. Simply because this is the first time I've actually concentrated on European cinema. I am determined to do some serious research into both areas! Let me know how things develop with your work, and if there's anything I can help you with, let me know as well!
Sonia.
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Karen
Unregistered User
(3/17/02 10:42:02 pm)
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exchange
Sonia,
I think, from the sounds of things, we each might be able to help the other quite a bit- your MA thesis sounds *extremely* interesting to me and I'd love to hear more. It's always wonderful to meet another graduate student working in a similar area. "What are you doing" is indeed a dreadful question, especially when you're not concentrating on a particular author or period- and so any answer you give is sure to prompt further inquiry.
I'm not exactly an expert on French or Italian cinema either- my training has been principally in literary studies rather than film studies, with some theatre studies thrown in for good measure- and I concentrate on literary texts heavily- so there's that slight difference in direction. Of course I find that film criticism is some of the most innovative in terms of the body and also the gaze/visuality, which you inevitably consider in the process.
Anyway, if you'd like that synopsis, please feel free to email me:
kdal1127@mail.usyd.edu.au
Karen.
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Jeff
Unregistered User
(3/21/02 5:15:43 am)
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Re: Horror
Horror, as a genre, is a bit difficult to define. I've read many, too many, online discussions about it. One person, however, had an interesting question: can a story be considered a horror story without any supernatural element? She didn't think so, and I tend to agree.
A story can have horrific elements in it without being a horror story, of course. For example, a story about a woman being stalked by a serial killer could have horrifying moments, but is it really a horror story or more properly a suspense story? The slasher films are, I think, horror films in that the killers, Mike Myers in "Halloween" and Jason Vorhees(?) in "Friday the Thirteenth," both appear indestructable, constantly rising up after being killed.
Also interesting, to me anyway, is that, as Jess pointed out, horror stories are generally morality tales of a very conservative nature. In the movie "The Company of Wolves" Red's grandmother sums it up nicely when she warns, "Never stray from the path," or words to that effect. The slasher movies have a definite morality to them: kids have sex and then get killed. Stories about possession and witches generally take a traditional Christian point of view, very often Catholic. "The Exorcist," "Lost Souls," "The Omen" and "Stigmata" spring to mind, though that last one is interesting in that it has a rather strong anti-Catholic message, so strong that it felt, at the end, almost like propaganda.
The whole sub-genre of vampirism is, I think, a metaphor for sexuality. I believe I've talked about this before. Penetration=new, unending life, a (re)birth, the female vampire being a woman taking the man's role (a woman who can penetrate) and thus sexually liberated, a bad thing according to many. The other big traditional horror monster, the werewolf, is tied to the moon and could be seen as an interpretation of menstruation, a warning about women being "unclean," a common view historically.
Sonia, if you have a link to the essay about Lynch and fairy tales, I'd love to read it. I never really thought of TP that way.
You also mentioned Tim Burton (don'tcha just love the way his movies
look?) "Edward Scissorhands" has all the elements
of a horror movie--Frankensteinesque scientist, disfigured creation,
etc., but I don't think it could be called a horror movie. Indeed,
most people seem to think it's a fairytale.
One more thing, it's funny that in "The Blair Witch Project," the heroes are initially researching a folk tale. I don't know what that means, if anything. I just find it odd in light of this thread.
These random thoughts have been brought to you by the letter A and the number 8.
Jeff
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/21/02 1:24:08 pm)
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Re: exchange
Hi Karen, just to let you know that I've emailed you with my thoughts on the body in film and literature. Let me know if you haven't received my message.
Sonia.
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sonia789
Registered User
(3/21/02 1:35:22 pm)
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Re: Fairy Tales and Horror
Greg, are you by any chance Gregory Frost, author of 'The Root of the Matter'? It's one of my favourite fairy tales in Snow White, Blood Red! Let me know if you are!
Thanks,
Sonia.
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