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Comment
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eshoya
Registered User
(2/24/06 4:37 pm)
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What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
Hello! I've found the discussions here and the information on SurLaLune really helpful as I have been planning and implementing a unit on fairytales in my second and third grade classroom. However, I have come across something that I'm not sure how to address.
As a class, we brainstormed characteristics of fairytales and we came up with things like: stories about royalty, fiction stories, include talking animals, have magic or magic things, begin with "once upon a time" and end with "happily ever after," etc. However as we were talking at the sharing circle today about favorite fairytales some children mentioned books or movies like Corduroy, The Lion King, and Madagascar. They considered these to be fairytales because they had talking animals (and maybe some magic?). I'm not sure how to address this issue. I know that these aren't fairytales but I'm not sure what kind of concrete explanation to give them as to why they're not.
What would you say?
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(2/24/06 6:59 pm)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
Why not? I don't know the story of Madagascar, but Corduroy definitely has the potential for magic, and the Lion King is rife with it, in a "the force is within you" kind of way. In fact the Lion King fits very nicely into the fairy tale world--it has a fairy godmother/father in the baboon, a prince, a princess, evil, kings, a journey... Corduroy is simpler, and reminds me more of a Andersen tale--with a happy ending.
Not all children's books fit in the fairy tale mold, but some do, even if they don't look like Cinderella.
Best,
Alice
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eshoya
Registered User
(2/24/06 8:14 pm)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
I guess I didn't consider them fairytales because they were not "traditional" fairytales, but I definitly see your point. There are many of the characteristics that other more classic fairytales have. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Writerpatrick
Registered User
(2/25/06 11:31 am)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
The term "fairy tale" is already used broadly. Not all fairy tales have fairies in them. Originally it referred to "tales of wonder" which encompasses practically all fantasy stories. And talking animals are a type of fantasy.
Whether Madagascar or Lion King are considered fairy tales only depends upon how an individual chooses to define a fairy tale. They both have fairy tale type approaches to the stories. In Madagascar (which I haven't yet seen), animals go in search of something better to discover what they had was better than what they were looking for. In Lion King, a cub discovers it's what's inside that counts. Both themes are traditional.
So it's all a matter of how one defines a fairy tale as to whether they would qualify. They could not be considered "folk tales" because that implies the stories themselves are traditional.
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Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(2/27/06 12:49 am)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
I don't know whether your third-graders are mature enough for a 'relativistic' view of langauge, or set theory?
I'd love to see a class build a picture of different meanings of 'fairy tale' (or any other chosen word) as overlapping circles. For our culture, starting with a group of the best-known tales with a line around the group. Then another group, perhaps a concentric circle, for some less well-known ones that are somehow different. Working outwards to things like "The Lion King".
Let's see, Andersen and Cabinet des Fees like two balloons floating a bit away from the center, but overlapping each other....
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cammykitty
Registered User
(2/27/06 2:24 pm)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
This gets a bit dicey because of Anderson, Wilde and several other fairy tale writers, but for me part of what defines a fairy/folk tale is that it comes from an oral tradition. I would suggest a new category "literary fairytale" for Anderson & Wilde and writers like Angela Carter and A.S. Byatt, although that distinction is probably too sophisticated for your students.
What I call a fairy/folk tale is typically a story that has been passed down, altered, and several versions of it exist. A lot of the written fairy tales like Grimm & I believe Perrault were based on oral tradition, but once they were written down, the stories became a little more solidified.
Once again, this is a bit of a dicey argument, but on the whole fairy tales are not the same when they are told again. They keep some elements, but other things change. Madagascar will always be the same (until Disney remakes it).
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catja1
Registered User
(2/28/06 12:05 pm)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
Fairy tales are about human protagonists; stories where animals (behaving like humans) are the main characters are called, creatively, "animal stories."
"Fairy tale" is one of those really problematic terms,because of its confused popular usage. Many folklorists prefer the German term Zaubermarchen, "magic tale," for stories that originate in oral tradition; zome, like Jack Zipes, prefer to reserve "fairy tale" for the literary tales like those of Andersen and Wilde.
One of the key things about fairy tales is that, unlike other forms of folk narrative that incorporate magic, they are understood as entirely fictional: myths (Greek myths, Jesus' death and resurrection) are sacred stories, and therefore considered "true" on some level, literal or otherwise; legends (King Arthur, Robin Hood, lives of the saints) are folk history, and beg the question of factual truth; but fairy tales are fictional, and are told for entertainment. Instruction might be in there, but not in a "this story is true history/a true depiction of the gods" sort of way.
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eshoya
Registered User
(2/28/06 5:45 pm)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
Thanks so much all for your responses. They've been helpful as I've considered my own opinion and how to present it to my kids. I've decided to allow students to explore how all sorts of stories could be called fairytales - as long as they can support their opinion with some of the "characteristics" we've talked about (or other ideas), I'm ok with it. I'll have them write up responses to a prompt "A fairytale is a story that ... " Sharing their responses with their classmates will allow us to discuss the idea that there is no definite definitition of fairytales.
I really appreciate all your help!
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Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(3/1/06 3:58 am)
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Re: What is/isn't a fairytale? talking with children
Still daydreaming ... I'd love to see a lesson that showed that 'fairy tale' has no fixed definition, but that terms with fixed definition CAN be made, such as 'Proppian fairy tale', 'Luthi maarchen', etc.
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