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Comment
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jadiebeth
Unregistered User
(3/30/06 9:14 am)
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Transformation in Myths
I'm doing an essay and i'm finding differences as well as similarities between Myths and Fairy tales, i was wondering if there were any myths where there was transformation esp. in greek myths. Does anyone know anything else that seperates myths and fairy tales as well as ties them together.
Thanks to anyone who can help me out
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(3/30/06 10:00 am)
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Re: Transformation in Myths
There are lots of myths dealing with transformation. To get you started, look at the myths of Niobe (turned into a stone), Daphne (a laurel tree), Io (a cow). Also, there are a number of myths wherein Zeus transforms himself into something else in order to have his way with women: a swan (Leda), a golden rain (Perseus's mother, I forget her name), a bull (Europa, I think), a small bird (Hera). Zeus and Metis (Athena's mother), have a contest wherein they transform themselves into a variety of different animals. Lots of people turn into birds in Greek myth: Procne and Philomela, for instance.
That's just for starters; but pick up a decent book of Greek myths and you should soon find the transformations coming out of your ears!
As to your other question, one thing to consider is that myths usually deal with gods and goddesses, while fairy tales concern mortals, more or less.
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catja1
Registered User
(3/31/06 5:22 pm)
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Re: Transformation in Myths
Also, myths are understood by the people to whom they belong as *sacred* -- they deal with the divine in some way that is beyond "just a fun story." There's always an element of Cosmic Truth (as understood by the people who tell it) in a myth.
Fairy/folk tales, on the other hand, are told as *fictions*. They may impart various truths, but the stories themselves are not presented as being "true" narratives, if that makes sense.
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kristiw
Unregistered User
(3/31/06 7:26 pm)
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myths v folktales
I wonder about that-- some of the Greek myths I know seem like they'd have been told with more laughter than reverence, and the same for a lot of Native American tales that deal with the divine... Coyote's a god, but I don't know if his stories are always sacred.
The difference between myths and folktales now seems mostly about packaging-- have you ever seen a book of "Classical Greek Folktales?" The story about Athena puffing out her cheeks, playing the pan-pipes, or Aphrodite trapped in bed with Ares while all the gods in Olympus point and laugh, are ostensibly myths, but somehow I can't imagine anyone taking them that seriously.
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catja1
Registered User
(3/31/06 8:10 pm)
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Re: myths v folktales
Well, the Greeks didn't think laughter and reverence were diametrically opposed; think of Homer's "unquenchable laughter" of the gods. Trickster gods often indicate that the religion has made room for laughter -- that's part of the point of a trickster. The Homeric Hymn to Hermes is unquestionably reverent -- and it's also screamingly funny, deliberately so. Some scholars think that hymn is a bit of one-upmanship on the part of Hermes devotees (who tended to be merchants/nouveaux riches) against the Apollo devotees (aristocrats) -- allying themselves with the god who put one over on the pompous stick-in-the-mud Apollo.
We've had a couple thousand years of Christian conditioning in the West that claims that religion=All Serious Business, All the Time, and this was used to disparage the beliefs of non-Christians with exactly that accusation: "how can anyone take that seriously, it's too funny!" But many, many religions don't see it that way. The Coyote cycles, all the Anansi stories, that Norse poem where Loki ties the beard of a goat to his testicles -- all are hilarious, and all are part of religious beliefs. See Trickster Makes this World by Lewis Hyde for more information.
And the ancient Greek stories that tend to get classed as "folktales" (by people who prefer emic definitions for myth/legend/folktale) are those that don't seem to have any cultic connections, like "Cupid and Psyche." Just because popular texts tend to lump all ancient stories under the heading "myth" doesn't mean that the ancients would necessarily have seen each story that way. And "religious activity associated with this story" is a better indicator of "myth" status than is perceived "seriousness."
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(4/1/06 8:53 am)
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Re: Transformation in Myths
It also depends on when in Ancient Greece we're talking about. According to one of the professors on my committee, who's a very well-respected classics scholar, it's a very common mistake on our part to lump hundreds of years of civilization together and say "The Greeks thought this," when, as in any human culture, things change over time. So there were periods of time when yes, people thought that the myths were literal truth, and periods of time when people more or less didn't really believe in them anymore, but enjoyed them as stories and culture, and that's not even touching on differences among groups of people within a particular era.
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catja1
Registered User
(4/1/06 6:12 pm)
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Re: Transformation in Myths
Veronica,
Yes! Sorry if I was making it sound as if Greek religion was some kind of monolithic entity, because it certainly wasn't. It's not like there ever was a Central Authority for Greek religion, defining what people are supposed to believe; there were a gazillion different cults at any given time, and those cults changed over time, and may have been different depending on where they were located, and so forth.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(4/2/06 8:19 am)
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Re: Transformation in Myths
Oh, no, I didn't mean that as some kind of pointed jab at you in particular! I was more just thinking out loud about how hard it is to know what kind of place myths and religion held in the minds of people who lived so very long ago. It really wasn't aimed at you in particular...just at all of us trying to think about a long-gone but so influential civilization...
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kristiw
Unregistered User
(4/2/06 2:21 pm)
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myths and folktales
Oh, I agree with you, catja, that ' "religious activity associated with this story" is a better indicator of "myth" status than is perceived "seriousness." ' Hence my comment about packaging and how it tends not to be very consistent with actual practices or cultural context. Not that that's a crime; I'm always a little wary of people insisting on popular/commercial definitions sync up with scholarly ones. Urban myths and urban legends, for instance, aren't strictly myths or legends, but it's a lot more trouble than its worth to tell people they're mislabeling their own stories. Not to mention a little arrogant. Any discipline tied so closely as Folklore to what people say and believe ought to give some credit to the names people have given things already.
p.s. I love Trickster Makes This World ;)
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