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Author
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Comment
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Van45us
Registered User
(3/27/06 9:33 pm)
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Question abut Peter Pan
I know Peter Pan doesn't really qualify as a classic fairy tale, but it fits into the general picture. Anyway, if anyone knows of a source that compares the 1953 Disney animated film and J.M. Barrie's novel philosophically, and could provide that source, I'd appreciate it. Or, if someone knows off the top of their heard. I have a general idea (having read the book and seen the film ages ago), but would like to read or hear opinions on this. I know general ways in which the film took liberties and softened the theme up for little kids, but I'm thinking there is more of a radical difference of Barrie's outlook and Disney's. Thanks in advance. :)
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Writerpatrick
Registered User
(3/28/06 8:51 am)
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Re: Question abut Peter Pan
Barrie first wrote Peter Pan as a play, then it was "novelized" after it became popular.
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Lisa Jensen
Unregistered User
(3/28/06 11:22 am)
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Dueling Peter Pans
The Disney 'Peter Pan' more or less follows the action of Barrie's 1904 play (with songs). But the novelized version Barrie wrote in 1911, 'Peter And Wendy,' has a much darker strain running through it, mostly in the passing observations Barrie, as narrator, is able to make while telling the story. A major theme is the "heartlessness" of children, and how they "despise" or take advantage of the mothers who adore them. Peter beguiles girls by calling them clever and pretending to promise them respect, while Wendy is afraid of "the strange smile of the commander" on Peter's face in battle.
In the Neverland, Barrie tells us, "Every time you breathe, a grown-up dies." Pirates and Indians slaughter each other, Peter regularly kills his enemies, then forgets them, and he sometimes cuffs a fairy, or has to "give them a hiding" to keep them in their place. (Barrie also mentions "unsteady fairies coming home from an orgy.")
So while 'Peter And Wendy' is a novel about children, it's not necessarily a children's book. (Unlike the play, which is a staple of children's theater.) Mostly, it's about Barrie's regret at being exiled from the tribe of childhood, his uncertain relationship to women, and his envy of the boy who never has to grow up. It's a funny and startling book, but not quite the sunny bed time story people might expect.
I believe Terri Windling wrote an insightful piece on Barrie & the creation of 'Peter Pan' on the Endicott Studios site at the end of 2004 or early 2005. (Sorry, I don't have the coordinates in front of me.) That would be a good place to start studying Barrie, philosophy-wise.
Meanwhile, pardon the shameless plug, but my short story, 'Proserpina's Curse,' presents an alternative view of the Neverland from the perspective of Captain Hook, a grown-up forced to spend eternity playing villain to a pack of little boys. My story will be published in the June, 2006 issue of Paradox Magazine.
Cheers,
Lisa
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Van45us
Registered User
(3/28/06 8:21 pm)
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Re: Dueling Peter Pans
Thank you both. Lisa, I'll be interested in reading your story - is Paradox an e-zine or a real one? Thanks for that wealth of info. I guess I am going to have to re-read the original story again, as there are things I don't remember. What I recall is that Peter, while displaying immature traits, would, when the chips were down, stand up for and fight for his friends. What I don't remember is him cuffing a fairy, orgies, or the "everytime you breathe a grown-up dies." Those are important pieces of the complexity of the novel, among other ones, that are completely missing from the animated film, and the recent live one as well, although I think that one captured the feeling better than the rest. It certainly made Peter slightly more unpleasant at times. The scene where he asks, almost nastily, who Michael is on the flight to Neverland was effective.
I think what I am looking for is Barrie's point. I have read Birkin's book, which is excellent, as is his website, and after posting this yesterday, I found some online study guides. Even with all this input, what I seem to get is that the story is ambiguous at times, and even contradictory. The point you make about mothers being despised runs right up against the Lost Boys wanting a mother, and other strong female figures, such as Tiger Lily, who is an aggressive heroine, very different from the view of them in Victorian times. I recall the Indians were turned into stupid parodies in the Disney film.
If Barrie's life is any example, I would think that he considers Peter Pan's vision to be the correct one. Many think that he is written as a pathetic character who will never grow up. While that would be how most would view it, I'm not sure Barrie saw it that way. Or maybe he saw both sides. This is why I was looking for info (as you supplied), because I read a lot of views and was interested in what those who know the subject better than I do have to say.
I've been to the Endicott site many times, and didn't see that article. I will have to look for it, if it is still there. I'm sure Terri Windling wrote an in-depth piece on it. Thanks again. Sorry for the novel, BTW!
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Van45us
Registered User
(3/28/06 9:31 pm)
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Re: Dueling Peter Pans
Found the article at the Endicott site. Just printed it out so I can read it, as it is lengthy, which is great, because it looks very comprehensive. I saw mention of a book, J.M. Barrie: A Study in Fairies and Mortals, which seems to concentrate on Barrie's philisophical motivation. At $75, I won't be ordering it anytime soon, though!
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Terri Windling
Registered User
(3/29/06 3:12 pm)
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Re: Dueling Peter Pans
Here's a direct link to the article on the Endicott site: www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrPeterPan1.html
I found Andrew Birkin's biography of J.M Barrie enormously helpful
when writing the article. Birkin owns an extensive J.M. Barrie archive
(photos, journals, etc.), much of which he generously makes available
to the public on his own web site: www.jmbarrie.co.uk/
It's also worth tracking down Birkin's documentary, The
Lost Boys, made for the BBC, as it's much more faithful
to Barrie's life than the fanciful Neverland.
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Van45us
Registered User
(3/29/06 8:46 pm)
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Re: Dueling Peter Pans
Thanks very much, Terri. I found it. Birkin must be a genuinely good guy, as he seems to be more interested in sharing his information than being the mouthpiece of it. His book and website are amazing. I was fortunate to see The Lost boys when PBS showed it a few years ago, and wished ever since that it would be released for sale in this country. I thought after the success of Finding Neverland and the Peter Pan film it was a natural, but so far as I know, it hasn't happened.
I looked at Finding Neverland as more of a surreal "imagining" of events, but not as straight history. I guess in some ways it perpetuates a "legend." Barrie might have liked it as much as I suspect William Wallace would have loved "Braveheart." They both worked great as films but not as reality. But for pure research purposes, which I was looking for, I agree that it's always nice to have the real story available somewhere. ;)
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Lisa Jensen
Unregistered User
(3/30/06 8:49 pm)
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Dueling Peter Pans
My impression—just as a reader, certainly not a scholar— is that Barrie longed to return to childhood & resented being excluded from it by growing up. Peter was his wish-fulfilling fantasy of eternal childhood, although Barrie was too sophisticated not to take note of its darker aspects (cruelty, heartlessness, contrariness)—at least in the novel.
Also, when the narrator of Peter & Wendy speaks of "despising" mothers (for their selflessness toward their ungrateful children), he completely reverses his opinion in the next paragrah, adoring mothers for the same reason, echoing again the contrariness of children. It's worth noting that the only females allowed into the Neverland are pretend (surrogate) mothers like Wendy. Besides Indians like Tiger Lily, the rather sinister mermaids, and the saucy fairies who are indigenous to the place.
BTW, my sincere apologies for posting my last post twice(!) If I were any more low-tech, I'd be chalking on the back of shovels, but I'll try not to make that mistake again.
Lisa
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Van45us
Registered User
(3/30/06 9:35 pm)
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Re: Dueling Peter Pans
Excellent observations, Lisa. I'm begining to see that ambiguity and contradiction seem to be the case, which is probably why, when I started giving it much thought, I was having a problem with putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. I think that Peter Pan is also about the choices we make, i.e., to live in the past completely and not mature at all, or to carry on while remaining true to who you are while still maturing, or not, as the individual case may be. All in all, Barrie had some keen insights into these ideas, while keeping all views and irony intact. He seems to be a romantic while shooting holes in it at the same time.
No problem about the double postings - LOL! I am near-luddite level myself...
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catja1
Registered User
(3/31/06 8:21 pm)
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Re: Question abut Peter Pan
Peter Hollindale's introductions to the Oxford "World's Classics" editions of Barrie's work (Peter Pan and Other Plays and Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens / Peter and Wendy) are excellent. If you're prepared to slog through some Freudian material, Jacqueline Rose's book The Case of Peter Pan or, The Impossibility of Children's Fiction is *immensely* important for children's lit scholarship: Rose contends that children's literature may be "impossible," because it is controlled at every stage (writing, editing, publishing, distributing, buying) by ADULTS, and therefore reflects ADULT fantasies of children, childhood, and what children want; Peter Pan is simply the most obvious example of this.
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Van45us
Registered User
(4/2/06 12:01 pm)
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Re: Question abut Peter Pan
Thanks, catja, I will look into those sources. Yeah, that is a good point, and one I have thought of in the past. I always arrived at the conclusion that if it closely matches children's own ideas, then it will be a big best seller with kids (Harry Potter being a good recent example), and if not, it won't. Then, of course, you have some great books that don't go over well with their target audiences, either kids or adults, and I can only chalk that up to what the "mainstream" identifies with, and what more intellectual or exceptional readers like, which always seem to be in the minority, unfortunately. As an example, R.L. Stine used to sell like hot cakes, where Diane Wynn Jones appealed to a smaller, more intelligent group.
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Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(4/3/06 8:39 pm)
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children and adults
As a playwright, Barrie had to entertain more than one age group at the same time: the children, and the parents and grandparents who had bought the tickets. I see a similar two-leveled-ness in Nesbit, WINNIE THE POOH, THE WIND IN THE WILLOWS, THE HOBBIT, and Narnia. The children see part of what's there; the adults see a composition made of the contrasts between what the children see and the whole.
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Van45us
Registered User
(4/6/06 8:37 pm)
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Re: children and adults
Sort of like Rocky and Bullwinkle? ;)
Yeah, there's a lot of that going around in YA literature today as well.
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