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Author
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Comment
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jadefoundnemo
Registered User
(1/12/05 6:16 pm)
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The representation of women in disney: heroines or victims?
Hi all! Im doing an exam in a few weeks on the topic of women and film, and chose to write about the representation of females in disney in comparison to males : ie sexism, male gaze (with reference to laura mulveys essay), bad morals sent out to young girls that they should not aspire to what they wnat to do and just sit around waiting for their prince charming, bad morals to young guys in that this is the way that girls should behave- and finally the idea that though we like to call characters in disney animation the 'heroines' of the story- are they not often just beautiful princesses that rely on their beauty to steer them in the right path- victims of their fathers orders or promises to princes?
Im talking with particular reference to Snow White, The Little Mermaid, and Beauty and the Beast as they were all made at different times and each hold quite different views of women (most probably to do with the fact of chances in society and the way women are now perceived) ie: whereas Snow White was passive and dreamy, Belle is more feisty and intelligence is more of a prominent feature for her rather than JUST beauty, (though, beauty is an extrememly large element of the whole concept of how she can change the beast and why Gaston wants her in the first place)
Id love to hear everybodys personal views on all of these comments,
Do you think that Disney is sexist and sending out bad messages?
What do you think about the idea of voyeurism in Disney, did
Ariel wearing a bikini outrage you or did you accept it as the convention of a mermaid?
What about the Villains in Disney- evil women all have special powers in their aid whereas males simply use violence. Does this promote the idea that women are safe to children?
The idea of motherhood not being important in Disney, most of the characters mothers are deceased or not mentioned- with the father figure being the be all and end all of decisions.
Another thing Id be grateful if anyone would like to touch upon is why Disney have changed certain things from the original fairytales... for example Disney rewrote Ariel to be saved by Eric, where in the Anderson version ariel saved herself?
Finally, any thoughts upon how things are changing (Finding Nemo, Toy Story, Shrek) would be greatly appreciated! My personal thoughts are that though we seem to be seeing more stronger characters, with teh exception of Mulan, they are not the protagonists- merely aids to the men.
Okay i know ive given u a mouth (or five) full there but its a topic im actually fascinated by theres so much to talk about- and theres alot already written on it on these boards ive noticed!
Any thoughts.... :D
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(1/12/05 6:34 pm)
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Re: The representation of women in disney: heroines or victi
Hello Jadefoundnemo. Have you checked out the great FAQ areas of this site? There's one on Disney and fairy tales: www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/disneyfairytales.html, and one on the portrayal of women in fairy tales:
www.surlalunefairytales.com/introduction/womenfairytales.html. Both links will hook you up with excellent resources and a list of archived discussions from this board on these subjects.
Best,
Alice
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aka Greensleeves
Registered User
(1/12/05 6:45 pm)
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Re: The representation of women in disney: heroines or victi
Just an FYI, IIRC "Shrek" was put out by Dreamworks (not Disney).
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Registered User
(1/17/05 3:43 pm)
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Re: The representation of women in disney: heroines or victi
Not all villianous women in Disney have special powers - Lady Tremaine, Anastasia, and Drizella from Cinderella and the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland are as magicless as you and me.
Tootles~~If I can't be anything important, would you like to see me do a trick? |
DawnReiser
Registered User
(1/17/05 4:29 pm)
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Belle and other 'heroines'
It should be noted that in many examples of Beauty and the Beast, Beauty is almost always portrayed as intelligent and the reveal of the library in Beast's castle is always a joy for her. While Disney obviously waters down many tales - Cinderella's stepsisters cut off their toes to try to fit into the shoes and Sleeping Beauty is actually impregnanted during her long sleep - you must look to the root of the tale as well as the alteration made by Disney in order to examine any sexists attitudes that may or may not exist. I do not think you can blame many young girls fantasy that 'my prince will come' solely on Disney and Barbie's dimensions are far more harmful psychologically than Ariel's bikini top.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(1/18/05 2:10 pm)
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LMM
I don't believe that the Little Mermaid in Anderson "saves herself". Her sisters try to save her, but fail. The LMM is willing to suffer the consequences of her actions, but as she throws herself upon the waves to turn to foam, we find that she has been bestoyed the opportunity for human immortality - the silver lining on an otherwise sad tale. Whether you like the Anderson or Disney versions or not, they are very different stories with very different endings/morals.
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Kel
Unregistered User
(1/19/05 12:28 pm)
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Disney men
I got to talking about the Disney movies with a friend of mine the other day, and he said he would want to be Prince Phillip (Sleeping Beauty) because he was the only one who really did anything. "I had to battle a dragon and minions and you guys just show up at the end?"
So this gets me thinking, sure, Ariel's prince kills Ursula in the end, but he never searches for Ariel or does anything to push the story along. He lets Ariel and Ursula make their moves, and then simply reacts to them.
Prince Charming does absolutely nothing except be a necrophiliac- the dwarfs killed the Wicked Queen already. And the Handsome Prince only shows up at Cinderella's door with a shoe.
The fathers are pretty pointless in the movies- Belle's father and the Sultan need to be saved more than the princesses. King Triton is the only one who seems like an authority figure instead of comic relief.
Maybe the guys aren't so in control as it seems? The girls are lovely and gentle and every other feminine cliche, but the princes are more like accessories than people.
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evil little pixie
Registered User
(1/19/05 1:35 pm)
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Re: Disney men
I always thought Ariel's bikini top was perfectly appropriate for a mermaid- the other mermaids dressed the same way, and as a human she wore clothing appropriate for humans. But my boyfriend was only in third grade when the movie came out, and he still talks about how hot he thought Ariel was when he first saw her :p .
Also, I saw a poster in a McDonald's last summer that had Cinderella and Snow White in slightly suggestive poses with the sort of "naughty" facial expressions they certainly never wore in the movies. It annoyed me somewhat, but I'm not even sure why, since I'm a strong supporter of a woman's right to be as sexual (or not) as she chooses, and the sexual double standard pisses me off to no end. I guess the poster bothered me because I felt that the Disney versions of these characters were never meant to be used in that context and that to do so was untrue to what they were supposed to stand for: innocent fun and daydreams. (Not that they haven't already been turned into cash cows, of course. And I do agree that Disney does reinforce certain gender stereotypes, although one must always take into account the period in which each movie was made, not because it excuses the stereotypes but rather to keep from flying off the handle and coming up with some big conspiracy theory that just isn't realistic.)
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Dark Siren
Unregistered User
(1/20/05 2:27 pm)
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Disney
I liked Ariel's outfit,& I love Beauty & the Beast - i's always been one of my Disney favourites,&I'm 15!(I have 3,if you count the Loin King trilogy as one.)Yeah,Snow White was passive,but that was in,what,the early '90's? That's how the men still thought back then.
Anyway,I was wanting to know if anyone knew where I could get the original story of The Swan Princess?I' knw it's nothing to do with Disney,but it's a fairy tale with a princess who basically does nothing to save herself from the evil magician,and (in the animated version) had her wee animal pals save her during the day - though I think she helped them get the magic book,don't quote me though.
Any help's appreciated,thanks! :D
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(1/20/05 3:07 pm)
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Re: Disney
Snow White came out in 1937.
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Dark Siren
Unregistered User
(1/21/05 1:40 pm)
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Re: Disney
Okay,but doesn't that just emphasise my point?Besides,I always think of it it as a '90s film,since that's when I first saw it...I think it was the first time it was colour-animated on the big screen...it was definitley the first film I saw at the pictures,and it was coloured...
I think I'll have to agree on the thing about the men just being accessories.I always found that if the girl was no good,then the animals were the best.But then,I was too young & naive to apreciate the baddies.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(1/21/05 1:58 pm)
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Re: Disney
No, it was a fully colored animated film released in cinemas in 1937. If your point is that sexism was prevalent in 1937, then of course I agree. And it was prevalent in the early 90s, and it's still prevalent. All the more reason to analyze it.
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JMerriam
Registered User
(1/22/05 1:06 pm)
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Re: Disney
I agree that you have to examine how Disney changed the original stories. If there's somehing sexist in all versions of a given story, it doesn't seem fair to single out Disney for criticism, whereas if they changed something to make it more sexist (or less female-positive) then they are going beyond simply reflecting the sexism inherent in the original tales.
Some Disney films aren't sexist at all. Lilo & Stitch for example. But most of them drive me crazy, because the women are valued for their beauty, and their beauty is unattainable for most people (because of the unbelievably narrow waists and so forth).
see how moonlight's sharp music breaks all of your windows |
DawnReiser
Registered User
(1/24/05 4:44 pm)
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Re Disney
Women being prized for their beauty is not due to how the tale is illustrated - whether by Disney or Dreamworks, or whomever - again it begins with the original tale and the time in which the tale or the version of the tale was told and written. Until recently - and not always now - women were prized for their beauty, their grace, their docility - good girls who were rescued by their princes. That's why I love Beauty and Beast - because she ultimately rescues him and in many interpretations -including one I wrote-Beauty isn't really a beauty.
In the 10th Kingdom's interpreation of the Snow White tale, Snow White actually believes she rescued herself because she would not hide from the Queen - "why did I open door, didn't I know she would harm me, of course I did but I knew I couldn't keep the door closed just because it was dangerous just because I might get hurt, little lost girls need to save themselves..." [to paraphrase and I can't believe I remember that dialogue that distinctly.]
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gigi
Unregistered User
(1/26/05 10:13 pm)
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disney
Hi
i have been lurking on this topic for a while trying to finally formulate my opinion
Disney does a good job in animation and the characters all are beautiful except maybe the disguise of the witch as an apple seller in snow white
maleficient and the queen are darkly beautiful
anyways
disney drastically changed the little mermaid to allow the heroine a more proactive role. In the original tale she gave up... She threw herself in the sea for something that will never be.
In the disney version she goes after prince eric flirting with him and all that
In sleeping beauty and cinderella they had to keep the story women as pushovers becasue the plot is not reasonable if they are strong in their attitudes.
I truly love Sleeping Beauty not only for it's tapestry like animation but for the beautiful tchaikovsky music.
Yes Prince Philip seems to be the only protagonist who actaully does something. (agreeing to an earlier post)
To rescue or save someone besides maybe Quasimodo in The Hunchback. (which is nothing at all like the novel..It was totally dumbed down, you know to keep it PG)
Also....
If you have the video of beauty and the beast look at the grotto and the waterfall right before the opening credits.
Beautiful isn't it?
It's the first slide (or whatever they call them)
wait its the first cell 9 i think that s it)
sounding off,
gigi:rollin
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ThatGyrl
Registered User
(1/30/05 4:27 am)
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Re: disney
Since Disney is the oldest most successful animation company in history it is more vulnerable to attack on the issue of the portrayal of women.
Companies like Pixar and Dreamworks are still in the early stages of success and were fortunate enough to have been established decades after the women's lib movement. Their female characters are more dimensionalized and less vulnerable than Snow White and Cinderella but they have had about 60 years to get a handle on the female sex.
I guess if you go after Disney for its portrayal of women, particularly in its early films, you'd have to go after the entire film and television industry.
But if you want to make a quick and dirty point, yeah Disney pretty much did all of the stuff you mentioned in your first post. I totally agree.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(1/30/05 5:55 am)
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Re: disney
I don't think that's entirely true. There are lots of different traditions of representing women in Hollywood: Myrna Loy in The Thin Man for instance, in the 30s, right around the same time as Snow White, played a pretty classic screwball dame--smart, sexy, funny and brave. Katherine Hepburn similarly played tough cookies, and Lauren Bacall played tough, sexy women with a hint of darkness. And all of these actresses played good guys, not baddies. Mae West too was a sympathetic actress who was not only sexy but pretty old.
Obviously there are also deeply misogynist traditions of female representation in old Hollywood that parallel Disney's problems (really picking up around the 1950s in my opinion), but I also think Disney in particular has its own personal tradition of valorizing female helplessness and passivity while demonizing female aggression and sexuality.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(1/30/05 3:37 pm)
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Reflective of Women at Disney?
I wonder if Disney's attitude toward women extended somewhat to the people who worked for or with him. My mother had a friend (woman) who was an animator at Disney throughout this period. Was she involved in story line development? Major character work? No, of course, she did background work.
And yet, with all the negatives we can come up with about Disney, young people have stated over and over that Disney led them to a deeper interest in fairy tales, which ultimately led them down an anti-Disney path. Kind of a killing the messenger?
So what is it about Disney's protaganists that makes us shake our
heads and say, "no, that isn't what a "real woman"
would do?" But it is an appealing story....sort of...but not
really. And how many other movie genres could be ripped apart by
such able critics? :evil
Jess
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(1/31/05 7:17 am)
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The storyteller says:
The storyteller says:
Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin...
Once upon a time there was a poor young girl who was as beautiful as she was good. She lived in a cottage on the edge of a deep dark forest with her wicked stepmother.
Or maybe not... perhaps...
Once upon a here and now there is a working class woman, old enough to be a consenting adult*, who is of mixed ethnicity and average looks. Her behaviour is normal for a female teenager in this society. She lives in a house in the suburbs on the edge of a deep dark city with her stepfather who has inadequate parenting skills because he himself was abused as a child.
(* Spoiler: we know she's old enough to be a consenting adult because at the end of the story she marries and/or cohabits with her significant other!)
If you read the above as humour then you might be laughing whereas if you read it as criticism (of traditional fairy tales or social egalitarianism) then you might be angry (with the storyteller or your society or yourself)...
Don't shoot the messenger!
Afterword: the only disney film I've ever seen is "Jungle Book" so please excuse my woeful ignorance but why would an underwater creature such as a mermaid wear clothes of any sort except to get around puritanical American attitudes to nudity? Clothes, even bikini tops (made of what one wonders?), create drag from the surrounding water during swimming. Why would mermaids wear them at all?
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gigi
Unregistered User
(1/31/05 9:33 pm)
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tops
They are made of seashells. In this case Purple Clamshells.
It was to get by the Censors (of course)
gigi;)
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afterthought
Unregistered User
(2/1/05 2:29 am)
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Maybe a non-issue?
To be fair, Disney didn't invent the helpless female archetype. They simply capitalized on it. And, it should be noted, not many people, including women, minded that fact based on Disney's success. It was all romantic fantasy. My mother has fond memories of Cinderella as a child. She's lived a life fighting with post polio syndrome. I wouldn't classify her as being damaged and helpless, even if she romanticizes Cinderella - still her favorite movie.
As for nekid mermaids, this fairy creature has origins with very lonely sailors. LOL The Japanese anime version of the Little Mermaid from the late 70's depicts the mermaids without clothes, and is closer to the original tale, if that interests you. However, I find it funny we are arguing whether Mermaids should wear clamshells or not in a thread that is exploring sexual exploitation of women. ;) At any rate, since women generally cloth themselves due to modesty and privacy, is it so strange that a mermaid society might do the same? Lastly, I believe that having the main characters be clothed was a good commercial move by Disney. As a young man in college I found Ariel much less distracting than the naked mermaids in Peter Pan. ;)
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