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Author
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Comment
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Patricia Banzer
Unregistered User
(3/10/05 12:03 pm)
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Linguistic construction of GOOD and EVIL in children's lit
Hello there,
I'm writing my university thesis on the linguistic construction of good and evil in children's literature and their influence on children. I'm concentrating on some classic fairy tales (tbd), on the Chronicles of Narnia and on some books by Roald Dahl (BFG, Matilda, Twits).
The basic question I ask myself is HOW and to what aim the authors try to linguistically convey to us what they consider good/evil, etc by using things like labelling (us goodies, them baddies/ choice of adjectives..), narrative proceedure, importance of endings, universalisation of values,euphemisms, metaphors and collocations to make the reader agree with them and disagree with 'the other'.
In a second step I will play tapes of the stories out to some children and adults to test their perception of good and evil, the influence the textual construction has on them, the influence of their own background on that perception.
I have read a lot of books on children's literature and tales already, but nothing specific for my topic- so I'm grateful for any imput as to
- whether you like my topic/ how I could improve it
- books you can recommend
- fairy tales with strong and weaker depictions of good and evil
- fairy tales that seem to strongly convey the author's view of social facts
- the psychological necessity of children for a clear-cut distinction between good and evil
- how in Dahl's stories good and evil differs from how it is depicted in fairy tales
- linguistic formation of good and evil
Many thanks!
Patricia
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kristiw
Unregistered User
(3/10/05 1:41 pm)
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good and evil
Hmm... interesting topic. What first occurs to me is, how will you deal with perspective-driven ideas of good and evil? I mean, in fairy tales whatever the protagonists do is "good" and whatever the villains do is "evil." Their actions often don't play any role our moral perceptions of the hero; if the story tells us the hero rides into a country and conquers an (apparently inoffensive) king, its the right thing to do because he has done it. I always thought it was rather hard on the ogre's children in "Molly Whuppie." Couldn't she just have taken off the gold necklaces AND the hemp necklaces?
Also, I'm not sure how *encoded* the author/teller's indication of good and evil are. Usually they just tell us straight out: "A king had three daughters. Two were bad, one was good." In that kind of situation I don't think they'll be a lot of variety in children's understanding of the good and evil characters. That said, it occurs to me that weakness-- poverty, parentlessness, even foolishness-- are common characteristics of "good" characters.
I'll think about this some more.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(3/12/05 10:49 am)
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Re: good and evil
Intersting idea. One of the things I always notice in fairy tales, when it's mentioned at all, is color. Not many tales seem to use color as a clue, but a few certainly do. Snow White, for example. Also, Snow White, Rose Red. I think color, when mentioned, is frequently a clue to good/evil descriptions.
Anyway, good luck with your writing.
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Patricia Banzer
Unregistered User
(3/12/05 1:41 pm)
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some more addings..
Thank your for your input! in my first part of my work the 'perspective-driven' view of good& evil won't matter much as I'm just going to concentrate on HOW it is linguistically constructed, e.g. by checking which words appear next to 'the dragon' or 'the witch' (and yes this could very well be colours!! good idea!) throughout the stories to convey a certain view about them to us. Also I find it very interesting to see how the endings of stories are constructed to make the reader feel secure with what he considers good.
Secondly, when it comes to the influence of author's and the child reader's backgrounds, I agree that in more classical fairy tales the distinction of g/e is rather clear/ archtypic- however that's a reason why I compare them to stories of Roald Dahl where a child's background (eg being bullied at school) can play a much bigger role on what they consider as good/evil. Also I wonder if what they learn are 'evil looking characters' in some of these stories (e.g. big, bearded men in 'the twits') will influence their view of persons in real life?is that desirable? have any of you any input on that?
Thanks,
Patricia
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(3/13/05 2:23 pm)
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Re: some more addings..
I'd think the first thing you need to do is define your terms. What do you mean by "good" and "evil"? Christian? Which sect? Western? Which cultures? Which times? Pre or post enlightenment? Contemporary? Etc...
Taoist influenced cultures don't define the world as "good" and "evil" so many Eastern tales wouldn't fit your suggested framework. Do Chinese children need/not-need good/evil moral/ethical guidance more/less than British children??
I couldn't get my head around your question at all at first but I hope the above is useful/constructive.
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(3/14/05 7:33 pm)
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Re: some more addings..
Another collection you might want to consider is Susan Cooper's The Dark is Rising series. Since this series deals primarily with the conflict of good vs. evil - the Old Ones vs. the forces of Darkness - it seems it would be right up your alley.
In terms of linguistics, C.S. Lewis wrestles with this question regarding how one defines Aslan:
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.
"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you." (The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, "What Happened After Dinner" - sorry, my editions are very old, and my pagination would probably mean nothing to you).
Lewis returns to this question in the chapter, "Peter's first Battle", remarking that "People who have not been in Narnia sometimes think that a thing cannot be good and terrible at the same time". I believe he also pursues Aslan's complex nature in A Horse and His Boy, noting that Aslan "is not a tame lion".
Hope that helps!
~Chandra
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redtriskell
Registered User
(3/16/05 10:30 pm)
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good and evil are milk and cookies
I think a primary goal I might have in this type of topic would be that good and evil are equally relevent to the story. If there were no wrong, there could be no right. I think writers convey conceptions of good and evil in subtle ways; and, as BlackSheep noted, those concepts vary widely from culture to culture. Hence, the vocabulary of the tales you decide to use will also vary. The skill of the author also comes into play- some have a deft touch for subtlety of atmosphere, others do not. I think this would also influence the good/evil points. I also thought the previous comments about Aslan were very good. Aslan is quintessentially good, but he is also terrible. A distillation of the idea that good does not necessarily mean easy or even pleasant. As far as language goes, I feel fairy tales simplify the process of who is good and who is evil. Complexity of motivation and in-depth characterization aren't really necessary to the truths they tell. I guess I'm rambling because it's a little late and I think this is an interesting idea, so I'm gonna stop for now and come back tomorrow with my thoughts in better order.;)
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catja1
Registered User
(3/23/05 5:10 am)
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Re: Linguistic construction of GOOD and EVIL in children's l
The main thing I'd be concerned about is exactly *how* you're going to define fairy tales as "children's literature." Because fairy tales were by no means considered exclusively for children until the nineteenth century, really, and then, it had quite a bit to do with rather ugly cultural evoluntionary ideas: the stories told by lower-class adults are perfect for upper-class children, because they're all on the same barbaric mental level!
Now, if you're going to work the gradual "child-izing" of fairy tales into your thesis, cool, but starting out with the idea that "fairy tales=children's literature, forever and ever, amen" will cause some problems.
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Terri Windling
Registered User
(3/23/05 8:01 am)
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Re: Linguistic construction of GOOD and EVIL in children's l
Patricia, you asked for book recommendations. If you haven't yet read specifically about the history of fairy tales, Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde is a good place to start, followed up by the various books of Jack Zipes and Maria Tatar. And Jane Yolen's Touch Magic looks specifically at fairy tales as children's literature. I'd personally tend to stay away from Bruno Bettleheim (The Uses of Enchantment), whose lack of understanding of the history of fairy tales tends to undermine his ideas about them.
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catja1
Registered User
(3/23/05 10:07 am)
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Re: Linguistic construction of GOOD and EVIL in children's l
Oh yes, seconding the Warner and Yolen recs; also, try Max Luthi, Maria Tatar, and Jack Zipes. Also, seconding, thirding, and infinity-ing the recommendation to stay *far* away from Bettelheim -- his stuff is worse than useless, because it spreads misinformation and outright lies, based upon shoddy and/or non-existant reseacrh, and it does so in an extremely unethical way. Many folklorists consider it all kinds of wrong to go in with the attitude of "I, the educated elite, will explain to you savages what your stories *really* mean." And, when one is engaging in the kind of psychoanalysis Bettelheim is, it's impossible to avoid. So, so unethical. And that's even before we get to the raging misogyny he displays.
If you're interested in psychoanalysis, the best example, and really the *only* good example, is Clarissa Pinkola Estes' Women Who Run With the Wolves. She's done her homework, is upfront about which particular version of a story she's using and why, and talks about how a particular story can possibly help you with a real-life psychological issue, instead of claiming that said story *is* inherently about said psychological issue. Good, ethical, and beautifully written.
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(3/24/05 12:18 pm)
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Re: Linguistic construction of GOOD and EVIL in children's l
>>Also, seconding, thirding, and infinity-ing the recommendation to stay *far* away from Bettelheim -- his stuff is worse than useless, because it spreads misinformation and outright lies, based upon shoddy and/or non-existant reseacrh, and it does so in an extremely unethical way. Many folklorists consider it all kinds of wrong to go in with the attitude of "I, the educated elite, will explain to you savages what your stories *really* mean." And, when one is engaging in the kind of psychoanalysis Bettelheim is, it's impossible to avoid. So, so unethical. And that's even before we get to the raging misogyny he displays.<<
Although, taken in safe watered-down form in the intentionally mainstream-adapted book/lyrics to Stephen Sondheim's "Into the Woods", it's much more palatable--
Still wrong, in places, but still on the topic (eg. Cinderella sings about sticky castle steps = fear of commitment), and with much less of the icky bloodlust that those of the "Brutal Bennoheim" school tend to drool over... :lol
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