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Author
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Comment
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/25/04 9:41 am)
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The wicked stepmother
I've just been reading Maria Tatar's book entitled 'The Hard Facts of the Grimms' Fairy Tales'. On p.144 she gives us one hard fact: 'In surveying the Grimms' collection of tales, it becomes clear that both stepmothers and cooks are almost always thinly disguised substitutes for biological mothers.' Stepmothers, as is well-known in fairy tale literature, are nasty and cruel and often end up devouring their stepdaughters.("Better a serpent than a stepmother," wrote Euripides.) If stepmothers are really just 'substitutes for biological mothers', then why do we continue to promote the myth of the pure and loving mother when it flies in the face of the hard facts of mothering? Perhaps we still need myths(lies) to survive in this crazy, mixed-up world??
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Mollyzkoubou
Registered User
(12/25/04 12:03 pm)
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Re: The wicked stepmother
I would also comment that in some instances, the "stepmother" of the final version of the story is the "mother" of the first version (Snow White; Hansel and Gretel).
As for whether we need myths and tales? I sure believe that myths and tales are an essential part of growing up... (something I, despite my almost 25 years of existence, have failed to do >.<)
Moll.
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/26/04 7:04 am)
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Re: The wicked stepmother
Maybe, Moll, if you let go of the obvious bourgeoisie propaganda found in myths and fairy tales, then you might make your first giant step towards true independence? I'm only just finding out at 40 that a lot of the ideas that I imbibed as a child from fairy tales are no more than the attempt of a lonely individual to believe that the future offers something better. I'm now learning to live with the fact that life in the here and now is often no bed of roses.
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Mollyzkoubou
Registered User
(12/26/04 9:50 am)
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[ot] Re: The wicked stepmother
It's sure not. >.>; But I always knew that. Grew up in an abusive household; made attempts on my life several times. You could say I know the abusive stepmother persona firsthand, as my uncle and my grandmother were both extremely abusive to me.
I think that's what made folk and fairy tales an outlet... Even though I never expect some glorious ending. Real life shows children who are treated far worse by parents, stepparents and even FOSTER PARENTS than I was or than people in Grimm have been.
Moll.
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/26/04 11:02 am)
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Re: [ot] Re: The wicked stepmother
Sorry to hear about your abusive uncle and grandmother. It sounds like you had it a lot rougher than me. I've spent most of this day in bed reading Jack Zipes 'The Brothers Grimm'. It's a good read and quite enlightening in places. For example, he writes: "In the corpus of the Grimms' tales there are approximately 25 tales in which the main focus is on children who experience some kind of abuse. This is not to mention the numerous tales that began with children being kidnapped, used as objects in a barter with the devil, or abandoned." As most of these tales were passed on orally to the Grimm brothers from the German peasantry, then it would follow that peasant children must have experienced more abuse than, say, children from the new bourgeoisie class, who were cushioned from the terrors of life by 'loving' and 'caring' parents. But there's another obvious question that follows on from the first one: Why did the Brothers Grimm select a large number of stories that contained nasty episodes within them? Were they abused, one wonders? After discussing the incestuous themes in the Grimms' tale 'The Maiden Without Hands', Zipes speculates: "Did Wilhelm relate to the tale because he, too, had been abused as a child? Have narrators felt drawn to the tale because it contains hidden motifs about the abuse they suffered in their childhood?" And he concludes: The Grimms' tales 'use in our cultural heritage may have more to do with child abuse than we believed, and their appeal for children may suggest that the tales may be filling an emotional gap and offering more hope for their future than the social institutions and caretakers of the future will ever be able to provide.' And here's the irony that seems to have escaped Zipes: Fairy tales are needed by those children and adults who have been abused, but it's abuse that give us fairy tales in the first place. What a cruel dilemma, huh?
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Mollyzkoubou
Registered User
(12/26/04 12:38 pm)
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Re: [ot] Re: The wicked stepmother
I think I agree with that assessment, as I for one have been drawn to tales involving abuse (Cinderella/Aschenputtel, Snow White, Brother and Sister, Hansel and Gretel). Quite possibly, stories that one identifies with, because they resonate much more strongly, stick in the reader/listener's mind more readily.
Moll.
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Crceres
Registered User
(12/26/04 7:05 pm)
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More myths
Maybe the reason for the large number of harsh stories in the Grimms' collection was because those were the stories they found in the greatest quantity.
Certainly, violence seems to be a part of any culture. Nowadays it comes through television. However, just because television is a recent invention doesn't mean people haven't always had an appetite for the extremes. And justification, too. The heros of the stories are abused by the villains, so the audience can cheer when the villain finally dies a grisly death.
When people aren't being shocked at the terrible things that happen in fairytales, they lambast the tales for giving an overly rosy picture of the world. (Is it rosy, or drenched in blood?) The most common message of stories is that the good people will win out over the bad people, and maybe from that angle the stories are at fault. But then you destroy one of the functions of stories, which is to give hope. Not to guarantee the happy-ever-after, but to give an example.
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/27/04 1:57 am)
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Re: More myths
Should fairy tales and stories just give us hope or should they give us a greater leverage on reality?
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redtriskell
Registered User
(12/30/04 1:45 am)
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fairy tales as map
Rumpel- I am saddened to pick up a strong note of bitterness in your comments about fairy tales. Do you really think of mythic stories as lies? I, too, had an extremely difficult go of things as a child and adolescent. These kinds of stories kept my soul intact. Not because they said everything would be okay in the end, but because they helped me to believe that I could survive. I love stories because they help to tell and describe larger truths; the things that scare people if you just blurt them out. For example, they all tell us, from the very start, that life is unfair and cruel. They teach us that wickedness can hide behind a beautiful face; that if you become what you fear, you will become horrible; that perseverence is the key- not looks or money or privilege; that one should be kind, even when that's hard to do; and that there is always someone, somewhere worse off than you are. There is a gratitude to be learned from wonder tales. They speak to us in the metaphors of once upon a time so we can apply them to our here and now. I doubt the human condition has changed much in the last several hundred years. There have always been, and there will always be, vile people who abuse children. I believe these tales function primarily as a map out of the dark and dangerous wood that is the environment of the dispossesed. Perhaps I am naive or childish in my belief in the power of these stories to alter a life. But they altered mine. If Snow White could evade a woman who wanted to consume her heart, if Hansel and Gretel could escape a witch who wanted to eat them, if Beauty could learn to be unafraid, if Donkeyskin could shed her shameful cloak; well, then so could I. I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching, but I believe in the power of myth and story. I believe in it like most people believe in God. And, yes, they should give us hope. It isn't hope that sends people over the edge- it's reality.
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/31/04 6:19 am)
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Re: fairy tales as map
You are absolutely right that fairy tales are maps. But who needs a map? Those that are lost, of course. You mentioned that you had a difficult childhood, right? This confirms my thesis above that those who have experienced abuse as children get lost and need some direction. Fairy tales, ironically, are quite 'realistic' in that they tackle some of life's taboo subjects(eg, incest, rape, abandonment, etc) but in a symbolic way. If you can work out what the symbols mean, then you can navigate your way out of the dark primeval forest into the bright light of day. But my point is that if children are reared with love and tender care, then surely they wouldn't get lost and woundn't need fairy tales or stories or Hollywood or religion to try and understand the jigsaw puzzle of their past? The German poet, Heinrich Heine, once wrote that 'Heaven was invented for those who have nothing on Earth.' Abused children - and there are a lot of them in this cruel and heartless world in which we live - have lost the ability to trust other people because they were abused by those people who should have loved and cared for them during their formative years. If people cannot be trusted, then those that have been abused look for other safer alternatives, such as God or Prince Charming or Richard Gere in which to believe. What these alternatives have in common is that they will never let you down because they are fairy tale figures. And it is this that I believe is sad. People invest so much of their lives in shadows, unreal phenomenon that give them the illusion that they have something 'real' in this world. But when the light goes out at night and they are left alone under the bed sheets, a tear rolls down their cheeks as they realise that they have nothing in this wretched life except the dream that one day a figure in a fairy tale will ride into their lives and rescue them from their sorry state.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(12/31/04 7:29 am)
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Re: fairy tales as map
Quote:
But my point is that if children are reared with love and tender care, then surely they wouldn't get lost and woundn't need fairy tales or stories or Hollywood or religion to try and understand the jigsaw puzzle of their past?
I was reared with love and tender care, and no more childhood trouble than you can't avoid in an imperfect world, and I love fairy tales. Loved 'em as a kid, love 'em as an adult. I think all people need stories as ways of understanding their lives and I don't think that indicates that their lives are terrible or empty. Rather, that human beings live in a chaotic world and one of our imperatives to create art.
Quote:
People invest so much of their lives in shadows, unreal phenomenon that give them the illusion that they have something 'real' in this world. But when the light goes out at night and they are left alone under the bed sheets, a tear rolls down their cheeks as they realise that they have nothing in this wretched life except the dream that one day a figure in a fairy tale will ride into their lives and rescue them from their sorry state.
You seem to have a pretty bleak view of people's lives. It's not an either-or situation, you know. People have fantasies and real lives--in fact, many of us develop the richness and fullness of our real lives by exploring our desires in fantasy. People have bad events in their lives and they can come to terms with them and integrate them. People have good events and happiness. My mom adores fairy tales and childhood fantasy stories, and she has two daughters she loves and is loved by, a ridiculously happy marriage to my stepfather, a job she worked, planned, and fantasized to get, and is constantly exciting and fulfilling to her, yearly trips to Paris, etc. The only times in my life when I couldn't enjoy fantasies were the times when my life was at its bleakest and I was deeply depressed.
Fantasy and real life is not a zero-sum game.
I dunno, I love fairy tales, and I get under the bed sheets at night and think "Man, I'm tired. Hope this cold goes away tomorrow." And then I drop off.
Just to add that I need a map almost every day, not because I'm lost, because I'm not, most of the time, but because I live in London, and it's a huge, exciting, confusing, busy city. Life's like that too.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 12/31/04 7:32 am
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/31/04 8:48 am)
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Re: fairy tales as map
Veronica - Great that you had a happy childhood and that you are happy in the vibrant metropolis called London. I, on the other hand, live on the other side of the world in Taipei, Taiwan, where the reality is not quite as 'civilised' as it is in benign old England. Nevertheless, I live and work here and that is the choice I have made and the one I have to live with. In order to live here, though, I have created a purely artificial world in which to dwell, one that 'protects' me from the harsh cold reality outside. My apartment is full of books, DVDs, music, and, of course, my trusty old laptop computer that puts me in touch with the world. I know that these 'divertisements' are a substitute for people and this saddens me. I'd like nothing more in the world than to go out on this cold wintry night and find 3 million denizens of Taipei waiting to greet me with a Happy New Year, but that is just the stuff of fairy tales. So, what's my point? Put simply: The harsher the reality the greater the need for a rich fantasy life. As the great Russian writer Dostoevsky wrote: "The prisoner is a great dreamer."
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(12/31/04 9:23 am)
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Re: fairy tales as map
Yes, but my point wasn't to say "nanny nanny boo boo" about having had a reasonably happy childhood and living in London. My point was that I am surrounded by zillions of books and immersed in fairy tales as well, and they're not a substitute for my real life--they're part of my real life. My point was that a) fairy tales and fantasy do not serve only as sad substitutes for real life and b) in fact, I would argue they are an integral part of happiness in real life.
Anything can be used as a substitute for real life if the person who's doing it needs that substitute: sports, stamp collecting, cats. It's not what's being used, it's who's doing the using and why.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 12/31/04 3:21 pm
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(12/31/04 9:33 pm)
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Re: fairy tales as map
Can't really argue with what you wrote Veronica, but it still seems to me that 'things' have alienated us from one another in this 'modern' world. Books are 'things', inanimate objects full of inanimate heroes and heroines which only come alive after we've activated them with our imagination. I remember waching Francois truffaut's film, Fahrenheit 451, about a dystopian society where a totalitarian government burns books because they are "anti-social". I was confused by this because on the one hand I loved books, but on the other hand I realised that everytime I picked up a book I was not interacting with another flesh and blood human being. And I still feel like this. I'm a very bookish kinda person and I'm trying desperately to shake off my attachment to the written word and engage in LIFE. My apartment here in Taipei echoes the story of civilisation. When I arrived here 4 years ago, my apartment was devoid of anything except my presence. As time passed, I acquired more and more things to keep boredom at bay. But the more things I acquired, the more alieanated I became from other people, from life, and ultimately from myself. Likewise civilisation, which leads us further and further away from our 'natural' selves into the abyss of boredom and monotony and alieanation that is modern day living. I'm a teacher here in Taipei and sometimes I ask my overworked students what they really really want in this life and you know what they say: "Teacher, I'd just like to be hugged by someone who really cares about me." Seems that the 100s of books they read and the many myths they ingest are no substitute for a little human warmth and affection.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(1/1/05 2:45 am)
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Re: fairy tales as map
I think we just don't agree about "modern living" and "civilization." For my part, I don't think that modern living is an "abyss of boredom and monotony and alieanation," at least no more than life in any era has been. I'm not sure what you mean by "real life," really. Interacting with other people? Well, OK, but again, I don't see how reading prevents a person from doing that. Shyness can, or anxiety, or depression, but reading is just an activity. I also think there's a lot to be said for withdrawing from sociality at times and just thinking on one's own. As for our "natural selves," again, I'm not sure what they would be or look like. I've always personally thought that if they were so great, we wouldn't have bothered to invent civilization, but that's just my opinion.
Nothing wrong with someone wanting hugs from someone who loves them, but it's not books or myths that prevent them from getting them. It might be books and myths that console them until hugs are available again.
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rumplestiltskin1964
Unregistered User
(1/1/05 8:11 am)
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Re: More about fairy tales.
It sounds as though you have a very cosy situation back there in the UK? You're surrounded by a warm and caring family, reliable friends and a civilisation that feeds your cerebral needs. Congratulations. People that have been insulated from the pain and sorrow of the world are often at an advantage in that they cannot see or feel the suffering of those around them. They live a fairy tale existence. However, you do hint at the consoling nature of books and the words within, which seems to confirm what I've been arguing above. If books weren't available, then perhaps we'd look to other people for answers and consolation? But books are not just anti-social, they have other drawbacks. Fairy tales, for example, create a world populated by two-dimensional characters who live in two-dimensional worlds. Reality is far more complicated(imperfect) than that, isn't it? Fairy tales also give people false hope, although I realise that readers need these lies in order to struggle on. But in Taipei where I reside, there are a large number of women who are waiting and waiting for their Mr Right to ride into their lives and sweep them off their feet. Unfortunately for them, this rarely happens, because the men that inhabit this earth are imperfect creatures who can never measure up to the Princely perfection of their fairy tale counterparts. Finally, fairy tales enervate their readers by encouraging them to invest in the future at the expense of the present. Karl Marx wrote in his Philosophical Manuscripts that "the more man puts into God, the less he retains within himself". Notice how we could substitute fairy tales for God here. The appeal of fairy tales, of course, is that they offer pat solutions to life's complicated questions. Easier to believe that there is one person waiting out there for you, than to entertain the idea that you will always be a lonely individual staring into the void. Easier to believe that one day you'll be living on the peak of a snow-capped mountain in a shiny white castle, than to consider the prospect of a living in a terraced house surrounded by noisy neighbours. This utopian vision of fairy tales is why they'll always appeal to those who are at the bottom of the pile: The Poor.(Remember that it was the peasantry that bequethed to the world these tales of hope.)
Just one other thing. You said: "I've always personally thought that if they(our natural selves) were so great, we wouldn't have bothered to 'invent' civilisation." This is indeed a paradox, because civilisation is a menace to the natural world. Why would man invent something that may wipe him out? Don't forget that civilised man invented the atomic bomb, chemical warfare and nuclear power. Are they natural? And are they civilised? Maybe they are? Maybe as Freud belived, we have a death instinct? Or perhaps we are a naturally aggressive and destructive species? Certainly evolutionary biologists and psychologists are finding this to be the case. And this brings us full circle, doesn't it? For if we are naturally predators bent on destroying everything in our path, then myths that submerge this nasty truth under a panoply of fables and fabrications will certainly help civilised man to sally forth without feeling the slightest compunction.
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briggsw
Unregistered User
(1/1/05 6:20 pm)
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It's a way of splitting mom into good/bad parts
My opinions...
It's just too psychologically dangerous for a small child to recognize the bad side of one's parents. It's better to project it onto someone else. So Hansel and Gretel get not a mother (like most of us) but another woman from outside the home, who wants them gone. Even a child with a stepmother can "recognize" that her stepmother is loving, and Hansel and Gretel just got a raw deal.
I have heard of a little girl who had 2 people in her house that looked like her mother: her real mother, who was nice, and the Martian, who looked just like her but was cruel. As she grew up she could face the fact that her mother really was both.
I didn't go that far, but I "knew" that my mother was really kind, wonderful, and good, but just didn't act like it for some reason.
I would say that fairy tales DO give us info about reality, but it's inner reality. For example, the child both loves and trusts, and also hates and fears, mother. So we get both versions personified.
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Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(1/2/05 3:24 am)
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Re: It's a way of splitting mom into good/bad parts
Quote:
It sounds as though you have a very cosy situation back there in the UK? You're surrounded by a warm and caring family, reliable friends and a civilisation that feeds your cerebral needs. Congratulations. People that have been insulated from the pain and sorrow of the world are often at an advantage in that they cannot see or feel the suffering of those around them. They live a fairy tale existence.
You've just made a hell of a lot of assumptions about my personal life. The idea that anybody who disagrees with you about the nature of modern life just hasn't felt the "pain and sorrow of the world" is condescending and insulting. I'm through with this conversation.
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(1/2/05 4:22 am)
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Re: Real life is no fairy tale.
What's the matter, Veronica? Real life too much for ya? I really wish you would descend from you quaint little gingerbread house up there on Strawberry Hill and engage me in further dialogue. After all, you made a few good points earlier on.
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Heidi Anne Heiner
ezOP
(1/2/05 11:52 am)
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Re: Real life is no fairy tale.
Rumpelstiltskin1964,
This is not the place for insults or flame wars. This is a community of scholars, fans, and friends. I kindly ask you to refrain from insulting other board members and stick to the topic, not personal name calling or stick throwing. There are plenty of other places on the web for this behavior if it is what you crave, but not here.
Heidi Anne Heiner
Discussion Host
SurLaLune Fairy Tales
Edited by: Heidi Anne Heiner at: 1/2/05 11:55 am
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Rumpelstiltskin1964
Registered User
(1/2/05 5:55 pm)
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Re: Real life is no fairy tale.
I've not insulted anyone! All I'm after here is an authentic dialogue about reality vs. fairy tales. And anyway, if it's a "community of scholars", why hasn't anyone thus far given me a convincing response to the questions I've raised above?
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