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Author
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Comment
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aka Greensleeves
Registered User
(1/27/05 1:02 pm)
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Dorian Gray
I've just finished Wilde's PICTURE OF DORIAN GRAY, and I'm wondering about the book that Lord Henry gives Gray--the one that gives him so many ideas and that he blames for his downfall. Was this a veiled reference to any real book?
Anyone know?
Thanks!
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gigi
Unregistered User
(1/27/05 4:09 pm)
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dorian Gray
I am sorry to have no answer but the b&w movie was on Turner Classic Movie channel today around 4 o clock.
Good luck
gigi :D
Ps It's a sad story isn't it?
At least that's what I thought of it
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(1/28/05 2:47 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Hi!
I actually wrote my Honor's Thesis about [i]Dorian Gray[/i], so your in luck.
The name of the book is [i]A rebours[/i], by Joris Karl Huysmans. The translated title is "Against Nature", and it made its first splash in Paris in 1884. Considered the "bible" of late-nineteenth century Symbolists and Decadents, it follows the advetures of the wealthy, young des Esseintes who attempts to allude his own world through experimentation with various elixirs - such as perfumes, art, literature, or rare gems.
It is interesting to note that Lord Henry indicates that he, too, was corrupted by a book.
Chandra
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redtriskell
Registered User
(1/28/05 2:57 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
I have no idea about whether or not it was a real book, but I suppose one could argue that Oscar didn't have to look much farther than his own psyche for inspiration as to corruption. I imagine it was very hard to be a gay man at that time. Maybe he wished his proclivities were the result of reading a mere book; that certainly would have been easier to explain than he was just born that way. You know, something along the lines of " It isn't really me, Society. It was this book that made me depraved! It's not my fault!" Kind of like the hysteria around the corruption factor of rock and roll, or D&D made people kill themselves. I've found it's generally preferable to most people to find an outside agency to blame for personal hardships rather than accept said problems and try to deal with them.
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(1/28/05 3:12 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Wilde was a huge fan of the book A rebours, and it is a well documented fact that it was the source of inspiration for the yellow book.
Wilde was not a self hating homosexual, and saw love between two men as the highest form of mental procreancy. The corruption that occurs lies not in Dorian being gay, but that the man who should have mentored him was the man in touch with the Form of Beauty, the artist Basil Hallward, and not Lord Henry. Henry sees Dorian as a "vessel, waiting to be filled", whereas Basil sees Dorian as the absolute perfection of the Socratic Form of Beauty. But Basil is afraid of the feelings that Dorian inspires in him, and does not become the mentor of Dorian. Henry steps in, and corrupts Dorian.
Ir is a cautionary tale that warns against a society that does not allow for the natural and healthy relationship between two men, as was understood by Socrates.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(1/28/05 4:06 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Duly noted and certainly interesting to know. And I don't think Oscar Wilde was self- hating. But, I do think he was intelligent enough to recognize that the way he felt was certainly not socially acceptable. I don't think recognition of the "fact" that homosexuality was considered corrupt means that Oscar loathed himself. I do have to wonder how he was affected by the climate of his times. No one exists in a vacuum, particularly not someone who writes biting commentary, and I can't help but wonder if he ever wished his life were different. I imagine that being viewed as a corrupting influence was difficult; that always having to be cautious of one's words and deeds was tiring. Prison certainly could not have been anything but hellish... So, did he ever wish he were "normal"? Even for a moment? I imagine he did- at least on occasion. If I could have a dinner party with him, I would definitely ask.;)
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(1/28/05 1:27 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
I always assumed that dear old Oscar was being self-referential, as usual, in Dorian Gray and if I'd picked a basis book I'd have presumed that it was Baudelaire's autobiographical novel "La Fanfarlo" or maybe one of de Nerval's two autobiographical novels. It's fascinating Chris (Chandra?) to hear that Wilde did actually have a specific book in mind although I'm surprised you say that it's Huysmans' realist novel "A Rebours" and not his devil worshipping extravaganza "La-Bas".
I know that Wilde's book wasn't the first 19th century fiction to use similar ideas of magical portraits as doppelgangers. Does anyone knows what any of those specific precursors were?
I thought there was a general consensus that Wilde was bisexual rather than homosexual? Hardly uncommon either then or now. Wilde was only prosecuted after he had self-destructively, against the advice of his friends and legal counsel, tried to prosecute a rich powerful aristo in court for saying things about Wilde which were true. Wilde proceeded to more or less confess publicly, under oath in court, to committing criminal acts. While certain particular sexual acts were criminal (between consenting adults of _any_ combination of sexes not only homosexual males) they were rarely prosecuted unless performed in public or publicly "exposed" in some other blatantly evidential manner. Wilde knew the probable consequences of his actions at every stage and he was brave/stupid/romantic/self-dramatising enough to choose his fate.
My favourite decadent anecdotes are both about the brilliant artist Aubrey Beardsley. One of them is unsuitable for posting on Sur La Lune. The other one is that Beardsley was arranging some flowers in preparation for receiving visitors when he decided that the flowers didn't smell the way he desired so he sprayed them with some of his sister's perfume! That's what I call decadence!
I'd love to be a guest at your fantasy dinner party Redtriskell.
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(1/28/05 3:25 pm)
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Dorian Gray
My husband registered first, thus the username is Chris. My name is Chandra.
I get a little bit passionate when talking/writung about Oscar. Coming out of the Hellenistic Halls of Oxford, Oscar had a over romanticized view regarding homosexuality, or he would not have pursued a court case against the better judgement of his friends. In the first case he eloquently defended "the love that dare not speak its name", and was even cheered by workingclass men in the room. It was the second case that proved his undoing.
As far as Huysmans' "La-Bas" is concerned, I have argued that Dorian Gray is Hellenic and not Faustian in content. Corruption comes from disrupting the eromenos/erastes mentor relationship (a type of educational relationship espoused by the ancient Greeks for grooming their young men) that should have taken place between Basil and Dorian.
As far as the doppelganger motif is concerned, Oscar was drawing upon the Narcissus myth in order to explain the mirroring that takes place throughout Dorian Gray. Not an example of self love, Plato's Phaedrus 255d-e describes the Narcissus myth as being regarded by Socrates as the recognition of oneself in the face of one's beloved. Wilde's dedicates one of his books to Robbie Ross with the inscription "The Mirror of True Friendship", which has been noted as an example of this.
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(1/29/05 1:09 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
My apologies Chandra for mistakenly calling you Chris.
Your passion for your subject is admirable and I'm sure that Oscar's shade, wherever it may be, appreciates it.
I've always superficially thought of Wilde as a decadent and read Dorian Gray as Faustian/Gothic but now you've explained your thesis so clearly you've taught me to see the book and it's author from a different perspective. It is true that his decadence overlay a Hellenistic/Classical view of the world which was inculcated in him throughout his formal education and that in Wilde's case this Classical education probably formed the underlying structure of his deeply intelligent mind. I tend to think of Classical Athenian, upper class, male, culture as being coolly intellectual and I always forget the seething mass of repressed and expressed passions which also formed that culture.
So the picture is not so much a painted representation but is instead a reflective mirror? Yes, I agree.
Magic mirrors (of varying sorts) are probably even more common in fiction than doppelganger themes. Bearing in mind Wilde's interest in fairy tales I'm now wondering about stories with magic mirrors in them as possible influences on Wilde?
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(1/29/05 2:56 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Hey Black Sheep,
You are absolutely correct in thinking that Wilde was a product of his Classical training. When Benjamin Jowett, master of Balloil College, Oxford, reinvigorated the Greats, it was his hope that Hellenism would put his students in touch with philosophical movements on the continent, as well as create a lingua franca amongst graduates of the Oxford set. However, it backfired on him in that it created a coded homosexual subtext, with boy lovers such as Hyacinth, Ganymede, and Antinous, for thinkers like Walter Pater, John Addington Symonds (the homosexual apologist), and Oscar Wilde.
As far as the mirror motif goes, I believe that the mirror that splinters in Hans Christian Anderson's Snow Queen (a sliver of which lodges in Kay's eye) had the power of reflecting the contents of humanity's collective souls. I don't know whether or not it was an influence on Wilde, though.
~Chandra~
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(1/31/05 7:33 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Jowett famously said, "Young men make great mistakes in life; for one thing, they idealize love too much."
Although now Jowett's been mentioned I can't say anything intelligent because my mind has gone into doggerel repetition mode on "The Masque of Balliol":
"First come I; my name is Jowett.
There's no knowledge but I know it.
I am Master of this college:
What I don't know isn't knowledge."
Which leads on to Alice "Through the Looking Glass" Liddell's mother:
"I am the Dean, and this is Mrs Liddell;
She is the first and I the second fiddle.
She's the Broad and I'm the High;
We are the University."
In reply to moral criticism of "The Picture of Dorian Gray" Oscar Wilde said, "Each man sees his own sin in Dorian Gray", so I'd like to ask him which "sin" he saw reflected in the soul-mirror of his own book?
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(1/31/05 6:33 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Hey Black Sheep,
Wilde also responded to criticism by claiming that Dorian Gray was a moral book.
Wilde knew that his readers would attempt to find the author hidden within the text. However, I would prefer not to join the prosecution of 1895, who tried to find supposedly telling signs in Wilde's writing that spoke of his sexual nature, but instead enjoy Dorian Gray as a masterful exercise of exuberant wit and subversive morality.
~Chandra~
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(2/1/05 12:01 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Readers often try to use fiction to extrapolate the author's autobiography but I don't believe that effective fiction is necessarily (or even usually) autobiographical which is why I said I'd ask Wilde what he saw reflected in the mirror of his book and not project my assumptions onto him.
I certainly wouldn't assume that Wilde's predominant "sin" was sexual. There are plenty of other possibilities for to choose from. Most of us are far from perfect.
:)
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(2/1/05 2:22 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
You are still assuming that Wilde intended his book to be some sort of personal mirror. The mirror motif that he employs with respect to the portrait reflects the Socratic mentor relationship which Jowett fostered, while denying the homoerotic origin. The erastes/eromenos relationship is one that relies on the beautiful face/soul of the beloved young man as a source of philosophical inspiration, and was a veritable pandora's box that Jowett couldn't hope to suppress.
I myself am less interested in Wilde's personal sins (if he had any), and more interested in his criticisms of the Oxford mentoring system of education.
~Chandra~
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(2/1/05 2:35 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
We all interpret other people's words. Your thesis is only your interpretation not Wilde's original thoughts. Equally I rely on my interpretation of Wilde's own words for my understanding. I'll quote them and my own response to them again:
In reply to moral criticism of "The Picture of Dorian Gray" Oscar Wilde said, "Each man sees his own sin in Dorian Gray", so I'd like to ask him which "sin" he saw reflected in the soul-mirror of his own book?
No one person can limit the response to any work of art to their one preferred interpretation.
:)
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evil little pixie
Registered User
(2/1/05 2:42 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Well said, Sheep.
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Chris Peltier
Registered User
(2/1/05 5:05 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
I did not ask you to limit your response to Wilde's work, I merely stated that I was uninterested in Wilde's "sins".
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redtriskell
Registered User
(2/3/05 1:45 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
BlackSheep- I wouldn't dream of my dinner party without you.;) Also included on the guest list are: Shakespeare, Ambrose Bierce, Byron, Voltaire, Joseph Campbell, Mary Shelley, Nathaniel Hawthorne, William Blake, Jane Yolen, the Brothers Grimm (although they count as only one guest), Lewis Carroll, and either Neil Gaiman or Terry Pratchett. I'd also squeeze in Harlan Ellison and Ray Bradbury. Actually, the list undergoes constant revision and has included Robert Heinlein (even if he was the cantankerous person I imagine he was), Bhudda, Jesus, Stephen King, CM Kornbluth, Poe, and a host of others. Maybe when I die, I can cook for them- I'm a pretty good amateur chef... :D
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janeyolen
Registered User
(2/3/05 3:42 am)
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Re: Dorian Gray
I'm there, Red--though I hope you would also invite some more women like Emily Dickinson (she'd probably hide in the kitchen and make you a cake), Elizabeth I, Isak Dinesen, Angela Carter, and Maria Tater.
Jane
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aka Greensleeves
Registered User
(2/3/05 2:39 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
How 'bout George Eliot? ;)
I'm almost hesitant to peek back in--did not realize what I'd be stirring up! :lol But--thank you, you have indeed answered my question, although it seems foolish and belated to mention it now.
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Black Sheep
Registered User
(2/4/05 3:56 pm)
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Re: Dorian Gray
Blimey Redtriskell I hope you've got one of those extendable dinner tables otherwise it'd be a bit of a squeeze. If I was going to be a comfortable guest I'd have to catch up on a lot of reading!
Most of the people I'd like to meet would probably hate a dinner party. I'll second Jane's invitation to Emily Dickinson because she wrote my favourite poem and invented the most interesting literary alter ego/dramatis persona I've ever read. Perhaps we could invite her on a country walk?
And I'd invite Mary Butts on the walk. She was a party gal but I doubt if I could keep up with her and she loved her country walks too. I'm fascinated by her short stories and some of her novels.
And Aphra Behn and Sappho to satisfy my curiosity about what kind of woman could make it big as an author in their cultures.
I'm not coming to the fantasy dinner party if Heinlein's going to be there but then, bearing in mind his attitude to free lunches, he probably wouldn't turn up.
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