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SarahNMIR
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(12/15/05 12:57 pm)
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Princesses
I am putting together my dissertation proposal (actually, it's my second one; I'm returning from a long leave and am no longer interested in my old subject), and I thought I'd ask your opinions. The topic comes from my interest in girls' lit, my interest in fairy tales, and my interest in my daughters (ages 3 and 5).
My topic is Princesses in 20th-c American fiction and film. I'm thinking a chapter on A Little Princess, one on The Disney Princesses (both in their stories and as a merchandizing phenom), one on fairly recent 'tween/teen princess books and films (Ella Enchanted, The Princess Diaries, The Prince & Me), and one on the princess figure for adults (specifically, Sleeping Beauty in Romance and SciFi/Fantasy).
I guess, really, it's a general question: what do you think? I feel silly saying "I'm working on princesses," but they are such a central figure, not just in the lit but in girls' hearts and minds.
Do you have princess tales/products that I should include?
Thanks,
Sarah
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Writerpatrick
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(12/15/05 1:35 pm)
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Re: Princesses
The Princess and the Pea comes to mind. Interestingly, it involves a test for a real princess. It was redone as the musical "Once Upon A Mattress".
Others that come to mind are: Princess Grace of Monaco, Princess Di and Princess Anne. If you are using real princesses, then you might look into what some of the Queens like Queen Elizabeth did before becoming Queen.
You might also want to consider princesses of non-European cultures, such as African.
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SarahNMIR
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(12/15/05 2:11 pm)
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Re: Princesses
Nope, I'm really just looking at the fictional princesses; Diana and Grace are out.
But I forgot about the Princess and the Pea. Since I'm looking, in part, at what makes a princess, her little test is good. There's a riff on the pea test in a heavy-handedly jokey book, Never After.
Thanks.
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princessterribel
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(12/15/05 2:21 pm)
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princess
Hello,
I recommend (not becasue I like it) the Disney Princess website. It may be of interest to you to see that Disney is currently trying to remarket the older fairy tales it produced by launching this new range. If you just type in disney princess it should come up on a google search...it will make you laugh!
Also reccently, I noticed that they were trying to launch a disney heroes...however, the only hero featured int he disney store was prince philip (as he is the only prince who really does anything). You could argue a case for prince eric I suppose. Anyway, that site may be useful to you.
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SarahNMIR
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(12/15/05 2:52 pm)
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Re: princess
Oh, dear.
I need to put a parental lock on that website.
I know what I want to say about most of the princesses. I don't know what to say about Pocahontas. She is portrayed as soemwhat older than the others; she is based on a historical person, although the facts have been distorted almost beyond recognition. The magical elements seem much less evident than in the other stories, which throws me -- the others I can (and will) discuss as farie tales, but Pocahontas not so much.
Any ideas?
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Chris Peltier
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(12/15/05 4:09 pm)
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Re: princess
Not a Disney princess, but since you are drawing from other literary sources, how about William Goldman's
The Princess Bride
? There is also the recent film
Ever After
, which, while uneven, has an interesting take on Cinderella with a references to Thomas more's Utopia.
~Chandra~
www.epilogue.net/cgi/data...lery=10801
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princessterribel
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(12/16/05 5:19 am)
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pochontas
I never realy liked Disney's pocohontas and never saw her as a disney princess...not becasue I hate her but becasue the story is so sad and I guess I always felt that it is not really the subject for a cartoon. It is about british imperialism :( A little bit like Tarzan in that respect, although I love tarzan. I digress, I was looking at a renaissance image the other day, it was aof a British actress painted as 'an indian princess' although I believe it was supposed to be like a princess from the mexico area. she was dressed in a very english renaissance gown, stepping out of a jungle into the open followed by two small pigmy like males (black) one who was holding a parasole over heron a long pole and the other holding her dress up but using it to cover himself. The whole message was the civilising process of the native americans...I thought it was dreadful.
That is slightly irrelevant I suppose, not really a fairy tale, although Poco was not a fairy tale , it was painfully real.
I second the notion to look at the princess bride...LOVE that film and ever after. I suppose you could also consider Maid marian of Robin Hood and Thumbelina becomes a princess at the end.
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SarahNMIR
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(12/16/05 10:43 am)
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Re: pochontas
Well, I really want to keep one chapter specific to Disney. I'm unsure about Poco, for all the reasons you mention, but she does come into the trademarked Disney Princess group so I think I need to mention her.
Ever After is going into my tweens/teens chapter, in the subchapter about Cinderellas. This one always strikes me as over the top, though, in how she just happens to be an expert swordsgal 10 years after her dad taught her. I did lots of things at 8 that I couldn't do at 18. And why does she need the prince, anyway, since he seems to contribute nothing to the relationship?
The Princess Bride will go into my "for adults" chapter, although it seems to me that the book is really more about writing than about anything else and maybe, for that reason, not entirely applicable.
Sarah
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AliceCEB
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(12/16/05 11:54 am)
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Re: pochontas
Wasn't the real Pocohontas a princess of sorts for her tribe? What Disney did was dreadful, but the person has been written about--although, a lot of it is romanticization (is that a word?) of her character. I know someone who was writing a biography of her, and who had some trouble finding any good source materials--a great deal of what she found was myth-making information.
Best,
Alice
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Chris Peltier
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(12/16/05 12:30 pm)
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Re: pochontas
Sarah wrote:
"This one always strikes me as over the top, though, in how she just happens to be an expert swordsgal 10 years after her dad taught her. I did lots of things at 8 that I couldn't do at 18. And why does she need the prince, anyway, since he seems to contribute nothing to the relationship?"
A lot of unrealistic things happen in fairy tales - far more unbelievable than wielding a sword (how about being able to feel a pea under all those mattresses?).
The film was a big hit, particularly with Drew Barrymore's fans, and you might want to consider what the film had to say to those girls who wish to identify with Barrymore. As I said before, the film is uneven, but I did find the question about social inequality and Thomas More's
Utopia
(the gift from her father that she truly cherishes) to be interesting. It is this issue that she challenges in the prince, who starts out shallow and unhappy, and it is her mind that wins him over.
~Chandra~
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evil little pixie
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(12/16/05 9:50 pm)
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princesses
I highly recommend Patricia C. Wrede's Enchanted Forest Chronicles (starts with _Dealing with Dragons_). One of the major characters is a princess, as are some of the supporting characters, and there's lots of discussion of what princesses are like (or supposed to be like) and why they're like that.
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I think M.M. Kaye's _The Ordinary Princess_ (1980) was one of the first books to present the now-standard rebel princess who runs off to make her own fortune rather than hanging around to dance and embroider and wait for the prince.
Good luck!
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evil little pixie
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(12/16/05 9:58 pm)
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oops
Oops -- just reread the thread and saw you're looking for American books and movies. _The Ordinary Princess_ is British, but it was released in America as well, and it's worth reading just for fun even if you can't use it.
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evil little pixie
Registered
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(12/16/05 10:31 pm)
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more princesses
A few more princesses, and then I promise I'll stop cluttering up the thread!:D
Books with princess as main character:
Robin McKinley (American, but now lives in Britian): _Deerskin_, _The Hero and the Crown_, _The Door in the Hedge_ (short stories), _Spindle's End_ (this one especially is excellent for what makes a princess a princess)
Gail Carson Levine: _The Two Princesses of Bamarre_, the Princess Tales series
Carol Matas and Perry Nodelman: _Of Two Minds_ and its sequel, _More Minds_
Dian Curtis Regan: _Princess Nevermore_
David Calder: _The Dragonslayer's Apprentice_
several short stories in Patricia C. Wrede's _Book of Enchantments_
If you search for "princess" on Amazon's books section, you'll get links to customer lists of princess-related stuff.
Also, wasn't there a board game called "Pretty, Pretty Princess" that was heavily advertised about five or ten years ago?
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Tainn88
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(12/19/05 3:11 pm)
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Re: pochontas
[quote=AliceCEB]Wasn't the real Pocohontas a princess of sorts for her tribe? What Disney did was dreadful, but the person has been written about--although, a lot of it is romanticization (is that a word?) of her character. I know someone who was writing a biography of her, and who had some trouble finding any good source materials--a great deal of what she found was myth-making information.[/quote]
About Pocahontas being a "Princess." Its a yes and no. I'm Cherokee Native American. And in the culture of Native Americnas there is no such thing as a princess. She'd just be the chief's daughter. But to the Europeans, who saw a chief as a King somewhat. Powhatan (Pocahontas' father) ruled a BIG piece of the Virgnia area, almost like an empire. So they consider Pocahontas a princess.
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SarahNMIR
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(12/20/05 3:40 pm)
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Re: pochontas
I'm sending my proposal out tomorrow, and I've included Pocahontas because the Disney corp decided to lump her in with the Disney Princesses. She's really quite unlike the others, but I've got to include her because she's part of the brand. I haven't seen Poca 2 yet.
Thanks to those who've added to my stash of princess stories.
Is anyone here familiar with the Royal Diaries series of YA books? Some of them look princess-ey intriguing.
Sarah
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Nighthob
Unregistered User
(12/20/05 9:16 pm)
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Princess Diaries
The Princess Diaries are very cool for the teen/tween set, but they are based on historical characters like Nzingha of the African Ngola tribe and familiar European princess like like Anastasia and Elizabeth.
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Rosemary Lake
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(12/21/05 12:44 am)
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Kupti and Imani, OLIVE FAIRY BOOK
<i> I think M.M. Kaye's _The Ordinary Princess_ (1980) was one of the first books to present the now-standard rebel princess who runs off to make her own fortune rather than hanging around to dance and embroider and wait for the prince.</i>
There's an Indian tale in the OLIVE FAIRY BOOK where a princess does that, except she doesn't run away.
<i>
etext.library.adelaide.ed...ter10.html
one day [the father] said to Kupti, the elder: ‘Are you satisfied to leave your life and fortune in my hands?’ ‘Verily yes,’ answered the princess, surprised at the question. ‘In whose hands should I leave them, if not in yours?’ But when he asked his younger daughter Imani the same question, she replied: ‘No indeed! If I had the chance I would make my own fortune.’</i>
So he sends her away to teach her a lesson, and she does make her own fortune, very competently.
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SarahNMIR
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(12/24/05 1:41 pm)
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Re: Kupti and Imani, OLIVE FAIRY BOOK
Thanks!
I think you mean the Royal Diaries, not the Princes Diaries. The Royal ones are historical fiction; the Princess Diaries is a junior chick-lit series that was made into a couple of movies with Julie Andrews and Anne Hathaway.
The Ordinary Princess sounds terrific, as does Kupti and Imani.
Sarah
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aka Greensleeves
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(12/24/05 4:29 pm)
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Re: Kupti and Imani, OLIVE FAIRY BOOK
Check the Sur la Lune archives for the last couple of years. IIRC, someone posted a link to an excellent article examining the current "princess culture" among girls--largely fed by the "Disney Princess" marketing scheme. (I say IIRC, because I really can't imagine what other bulletin board I frequent might have had that link....)
Edited by: aka Greensleeves at: 12/24/05 4:29 pm
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