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Comment
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Renee
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(11/28/05 7:04 pm)
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Bibical myths and teh portrayal of females
Thesis... : Woman who chose to be independant are portrayed as wickid figures for deying male authority. There actions have brought on dier consiquences to woman according to the bible and have marked woman with stereotypes throught out history.... (just a ruff draf)
Anyone help me with some arguments ..... ?
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Veronica Schanoes
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(11/28/05 8:08 pm)
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Bible stories
It's a rather general thesis, but one story to look at is the story of Queen Vashti, who refused to, what was it, dance for the soldiers, and so was put away and replaced with Esther. Obviously, Eve should play a major role in your work--her
punishment
is the capacity for childbirth (as opposed to the ability to bear children being a blessing and a power). Lot's Wife, I suppose is another one.
The Alica Ostriker is called
Feminist Revision and the Bible
.
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princessterribel
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(11/29/05 5:40 am)
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Eve
Veronica already mentioned Eve but just to elaborate, According to Milton's paradise lost (ew!) she fell in love with her own reflection in a pool of water and it to an intervention from God to convince her that she should Love Adam and not herself.
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midori
snyder
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(11/29/05 6:13 am)
ezSupporter
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Old and New Testament
It might be useful here to make a distinction betwen old and new testament when working with Biblical sources. There is a significant difference in the tone--both men and women experience reward and punishment in much harsher (and joyous) terms. The New Testament changes the tone quite a bit and along with it, one can find a slow elavation of the importance of women.
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bielie
Unregistered User
(11/29/05 9:14 am)
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Biblical women
Deborah was a military leader of the Israelites. Jael killed the great king Cisera. Rahab was a prostitute who betrayed her own people to help the Jewish spies. She is still regarded as a hero. Esther spoke her mind to the king and saved her people from genocide. Mary was chosen to be the mother of the christ. Several women had positions of leadership in the new testament church. These are but a few examples.
I really think your thesis is too simplistic and does not reflect what the Bible teaches about women's rights.
Eve's punishment was NOT the capacity for childbirth. The CONSEQUINCE (not punishment) of her sin was that her children would bring her pain.
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Veronica Schanoes
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(11/29/05 9:21 am)
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Eve and childbirth
I think that's a matter of interpretation. As I recall, the statement is "Thou shalt bring for children in pain and...[something else--I'm out of town and not near a Bible]." Since she hasn't brought forth children before, and I believe, though I could be wrong, as I'm not a Bible scholar, her capacity to do so hasn't been mentioned before, it could mean that her punishment is childbearing itself, or it could mean, as you say, that her punishment is that childbirth will be painful. In which case...don't get me started on that. I stand by the point that childbirth is made a punishment rather than a gift.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 11/29/05 9:24 am
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Writerpatrick
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(11/29/05 10:12 am)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
Adam and Eve can be interpreted as a parable about maturity. The "forbidden fruit" could be considered puberty. Before that Adam and Eve live in childlike innocence, but afterwards are required to take care of themselves and bear children.
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Veronica Schanoes
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(11/29/05 10:46 am)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
Jezebel comes to mind as well.
But bielie is right that there are several important and tought-minded women in the Bible--I was thinking of Deborah, Yael, and Esther myself, though I couldn't remember whether or not Yael was part of the apocrypha. I wouldn't count Mary among them myself, as she accedes to what is chosen for her, rather than acting as an agent herself--she describes herself as a handmaiden. In general, though, does the Bible reward independent thinking for men? I'm thinking of Abraham and Isaac, in which a man is rewarded for being willing to sacrifice his son--not the values I was raised with, I must say. Ostriker does a very interesting reading of that sequence, connecting it to the disappearence of Sarah from the tale.
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AliceCEB
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(11/29/05 7:11 pm)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
"In general, though, does the Bible reward independent thinking for men? I'm thinking of Abraham and Isaac, in which a man is rewarded for being willing to sacrifice his son--not the values I was raised with, I must say."
At least in the Old Testament, there's a tension between, on the one hand, following God unquestioningly and, on the other, questioning God's intended actions and maybe even making God change his mind. Moses in particular saved his people over and over when God just had had enough of them and was ready to smite them all from the earth. Even Abraham bargained with God: before the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah, he tried and to save the people, and God agreed to spare them if righteous people could be found within the cities.
Best,
Alice
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AliceCEB
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(11/29/05 7:15 pm)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
And back to the original poster's question: Miriam was a prophet and a leader in her own right (although she does get severely punished by God with leprosy when she is caught gossiping).
Best,
Alice
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avalondeb
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(11/29/05 8:04 pm)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
Eve's punishment was that her birth pangs would be INCREASED,
(Genesis 3:16)
To the woman he said: "I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children"
However, I agree with the above poster that both the New and Old Testaments portray many strong woman in a postive light.
Sarah (Genesis 21:12)
God told Abraham to listen to Sarah in sending Hagar away, to protect the inheritance of Sarah's son Isaac. Initially, Abraham didn't want to send Hagar and Ismael away.
The Capable Wife (Proverbs 31:10-31)
The last chapter in Proverbs describes the "ideal" wife. She is described as being independent financially and engaging in commerce
- Real estate or owning land
(Proverbs 31:16)
- She engages in trading and sale
(Proverbs 31:18, 24)
Deborah (Judges 4:4, 10)
She was a both a prophetess AND a judge of Isreal. She went into battle as well.
Jael (Judges 4:21)
Took the intiative and killed Sisera, the king of Isreal's enemy. She took a tent pin and drove it into Sisera's temple while he lay sleeping in her tent.
Esther (Esther 4:11 & Esther 5:2)
She went to speak to her husband, the King of Medo-Persia. To appear before the king without official invitation was a death sentence, unless the king held out his scepter to express his forgiveness of the person's trangression. The whole story of Esther is even celebrated today as the festival or celebration of Purim.
Jochebed (Exodus 6:20 & Exodus 2:1-3)
Although Pharoah decreed that all baby boys should be put to death, she defied Pharoah and put Moses in a basket, well, you know the rest....
The Jewish Midwives from Exodus (Exodus 1:15-21)
Pharoah told the Jewish midwives to kill every boy as soon as he was born. They tricked Pharoah and told him that the Jewish women were so healthy, they had their babies before they arrived to assist in the deliveries. God "dealth well with the midwives" and "because the midwives feared God, he later presented them with families". So their ignoring Pharoah, at the risk of their lives, was blessed.
Abigail (1 Samuel 25:1-41)
Abigail was married to a nasty, stupid man named Nabal. He insulted David and refused to give him some food after David had protected his flocks. David got enraged, got his army together, and was on his way to slaughter every male. Abigail sent a whole mess of food and calmed David down. He was VERY grateful to Abigial for stopping him. David later marries Abigail, when Nabal essentially has a stroke upon learning how close he came to being killed.
Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42)
She is portrayed as a hard worker, making gifts of clothing for other widows. When she died, she was so mourned that Peter resurrected her.
Eunice & Lois
(Acts 16:1,2
2 Timothy 3:14,15
1 Timothy 1:5)
They raised Timothy, who later became a pillar in the early Christian congregation. Paul travelled all over with him spreading Christianity. If you notice, it was the WOMEN in his family who were credited with raising him, his father is only mentioned as a "Greek", never mentioned by name, was an unbeliever.
So I feel that this proves that although the Bible does talk about powerful women who were bad (Eve, Jezebel, The Harlot from Revelation), it also talks about GOOD strong, powerful, decisive women as well. Just like men, there are a slew of both good AND bad powerful, decisive men in the Bible.
Edited by: avalondeb at: 11/29/05 8:23 pm
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Veronica Schanoes
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(11/29/05 11:03 pm)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
I don't know; my King James translation says that "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children..."
Which leaves it a bit more open--sorrow is being multiplied, as is conception--presumably conception as in "conceiving a child" not as in understanding--but that could also be a reference to the introduction of death. For one thing, there's no need for childbirth without death, so the idea that both sorrow and conception are being multiplied/increased makes sense separate from the pains of labor. If the issue is influence, then the King James version is vitally important. If the issue is the original import of the Bible, then we'll have to go to the original, the language of which I, unfortunately, don't read.
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AliceCEB
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(11/30/05 9:30 am)
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Re: Eve and childbirth
I don't know if this helps, but the "JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh"--a literal translation of the Torah (The Five Books of Moses, from Genesis to Deuteronomy), the Nevi'im (The Prophets), and the Kethuvim (The Writings)--translates the verse as follows:
"And to the woman He said,
'I will make most severe
Your pangs in childbearing;
In pain shall you bear children. . . ."
Then, after God has meted out his punishments to the serpent, to woman and to Adam, but just before God banishes them out of the Garden of Eden:
"The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living."
I'm not a Bible scholar, but this is interesting: the punishment to women is to have pain in childbirth, which implies that the pain is the punishment. But Eve only receives her name after this punishment is meted out--which I think implies that she also received the capacity to bear children at the same time. This would be consistent with one view voiced earlier that the eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and bad is what brought Adam and Eve out of a state of childhood into adulthood.
Of course this isn't clear, and the idea that they were in a state of childhood while in the Garden is further muddied by the fact that immediately after God fashions woman out of Adams rib (and well before they eat the forbidden fruit), the text states:
"Hence a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, so that they become one flesh."
I view that as meaning that the knowledge of sex was created at the same time as the creation of woman.
I'm sure there's scholarship about all of this... It certainly would make a fascinating research topic.
Best,
Alice
Edited by: AliceCEB at: 11/30/05 9:37 am
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xXRadicalDreamerXx
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(12/7/05 5:21 pm)
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Eve wasn't Adams' First
Did you know that in the Jewish bible Eve was Adams second wife. Adams first wife was called Lilith. She didn't like Adam being on top of her her when they where doing "it". She wanted to be equaled with Adam. Lilith was better then Adam at every thing. But Adam didn't want her anymore and so god made Eve of his bone so that Eve would never leave Adam like Lilith had done. I think Lilith had become the wife of the devil and was the headmistress in telling the succubi what to do.
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Veronica Schanoes
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(12/7/05 7:19 pm)
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Lilith
Lilith wasn't Adam's first wife in the Torah; she's a Jewish myth that seems to have been written down in the middle ages, based on the first mention of human creation: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." The discrepancy between this account and the later creation of Eve out of Adam's rib is what gave rise to the myth of Lilith. No mention of her is to be found in the Torah. She indeed, according to myth, refused to be on the bottom during sex and became a mother of monsters after being cast out. She's pretty cool.
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kristiw
Unregistered User
(12/8/05 1:48 am)
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Jadis
I think there's another thread talking about the Narnia Chronicles, but wasn't Lilith the inspiration for Jadis?
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Veronica Schanoes
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(12/8/05 11:14 am)
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Jadis
Now
that
is the most interesting thing I have ever heard about Narnia.
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darklingthrush
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(12/10/05 12:33 pm)
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Isaac vs. Jepththah's daughter
While it's not punishment for independent thinking, I do think it is interesting to note the two instances of vows of sacrifice to God in the OT. In one, Isaac must be sacrificed, to keep Abraham's promises to God sacred..and of course has a suitable sacrifice substituted. In Judges 11:29-40 we have a similar situation, Jephthah promises a sacrifice to God of whatever comes out to meet him first from his house, if victory is delivered to him. When it turns out to be his only child and daughter, she accepts the conditions and there is no substitute.
I've always found the two stories to be striking. Isaac is saved at the last minute while Jephthah's daughter is not. Her own response to her father's promise certainly brings to mind many fairy tale heroines' responses --such as Beauty in Beauty in the Beast, the heroine from East of the Sun, West of the Moon, etc.
A little off-topic but this thread reminded me of that story.
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