|
Author
|
Comment
|
DividedSelf
Registered User
(8/4/05 5:20 am)
|
Re: Actions of immaturity, or grooming of an innocent?
PS - He does actually take Rapunzel back to his kingdom.
|
Lamplighter
Registered User
(8/4/05 8:57 am)
|
Re: Actions of immaturity, or grooming of an innocent?
Divided Self - these are good points.
My understanding of the term “immaturity” is not necessarily related to moral decision making – in fact, it suggests a sort of amorality. I would be wary of the argument that maturity might imply disinclination for evil acts; experience in any field of endeavour may improve performance…
Perhaps my interpretation of the prince in this story is unkind and over-emphasises the sexual nature of his relationship with Zel. It is not the side of the tale I would choose to tell a very young audience, for example.
To bring this thread back to its origins, may I suggest that the wicked stepfather is too likely to be the predatory monster in reality, and this representation in fantasy is thus unnecessary?
|
DividedSelf
Registered User
(8/4/05 9:12 am)
|
Re: Actions of immaturity, or grooming of an innocent?
I think maturity is not the same thing as experience. It's possible - and actually quite common - for a person to have no end of worldly experience and yet have the emotional development of a 12 year old.
|
DividedSelf
Registered User
(8/4/05 12:43 pm)
|
Re: Actions of immaturity, or grooming of an innocent?
Also -
I don't really go along with the "this sex is nastier than that sex" kind of generalisation. People are more complicated than a race or gender or religion or any other category, and so are their actions.
|
Lamplighter
Registered User
(8/5/05 6:13 am)
|
Fair comments
Fair comments Dvided Self. I have enjoyed participating in this thread. Perhaps you might like to attempt a summary of opinion here?
|
Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(8/5/05 7:55 pm)
|
comic version
I distinguish the the prince's blindness, Rapunzel's suffering in the wilderness, etc from the other parts of the tale.
The other events -- lettuce, tower, hair, prince, pregnancy -- were used in comic versions also. There's one version with a long series of events where after each visit the witch begins to suspect something -- and the lovers outwit her each time. Farce stuff, lover hiding under the bed sort of thing, talking parrot.
|
Rosemary Lake
Registered User
(8/5/05 10:21 pm)
|
'fathers' in Pullman, Rowling, etc
[[ Mr. Dursley is Harry Potter's uncle, Lord Asriel is Lyra's uncle, and Count Olaf is the Baudelaire orphans' guardian, but not married to their mother. ]]
Lyra's mother, Mrs. Coulter, is worse than her father, Lord Asriel; Mrs. Dursley is as bad as Mr. Dursley or nearly. For assymetry there's Darth Vader (and Count Olaf I suppose, haven't read much of those).
In fairy tales I'd look at the gender of the protagonist. A female protagonist often has a female antagonist, some of whom *are* mother figures. A male protagonist often has a male antagonist, most of whom *are not* father figures. One common female protagonist motif is 'girl rescues enchanted prince from witch's curse.' In the most popular Cinderella, the stepmother and stepsisters are antagonists all the way through; the bad fathers in 'Salt' and 'Donkeyskin' and 'She-Bear' etc just send the girl away from home and disappear from the story till she rubs salt in their faces at the end.
Of course there are Bluebeard type stories, and 'The Chicory Gatherers', in which a girl goes to the home of an ogre or such and outwits him, but those are if anything husband-figures, not father figures. 'The Master Maid' stories do have a girl vs father figure as active antagonist.
|
bielie
Unregistered User
(8/6/05 4:25 pm)
|
Phantom
The Phantom is damaged. He is evil because he never knew good. Christine and Raoul's selfless love is the first good he ever sees in his life. His response to this experience of good is to let Christine go. Through this act of selfless sacrifice he is redeemed. Even though Christine did not stay with him, she saved his soul.
If the story ended in any other way it would not have worked.
There is a nice parallel in Disney's version of Beauty and the Beast. The Beast was always selfish and abusive. When Belle sacrifes herself to save her father the Beast's transformation begins.
|
Dark Siren
Unregistered User
(8/7/05 3:31 pm)
|
Re: Phantom
I can see the point of that,although the dance mistress(Miranda Richardson)did save him from that circus,which is an act of good.
I don't know if you can say because someone is damaged and known no good,must be evil.That's like saying Rapunzel has no idea that her position is undesirable,when she works with the prince to escape.He acts evil,because he knows no different.The fact that he lets Christine go shows he does have goodness in him,and may have been good if he'd know it.
(Of course,many say everyone has the potiential for good and evil,and some of us lean more to one than the other - or that whether we are good or bad,we have a touch of the other inside us somewhere.)
I think many people are conflicted over who is the hero,the Phantom or Raoul.Raoul has all the stereotypical good-boy qualities,and sometimes that annoyed me,especially when I first saw it.Now,because I know he gets angry later,violent towards the Phantom,I like him better,can watch it better,because that makes him more human for me.The Phantom is an intriguing character,very "Richard III",very charismatic(in a bad way,with Richard,and occasional with the Phantom).Like a spider compelling people into his web.Many sympathise with him,and prefer him because he isn't the perfect good little boy Raoul is.
|
|
