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Author
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Comment
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dkontos
Unregistered User
(4/3/05 7:13 am)
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Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
To all who come across this message:
I am a current freshman at the Hartt School of Music, and currently I am writing a research paper on how the portrayal of women in Grimms' Fairy Tales is affecting the behavior of the youth (both boys and girls), in respect to their social and gender developments.
I have already done extensive research on the topic from a historical and cultural point of view. But, what I am trying to obtain is some personal experiences and opinions on the questions below. Some of my sources up to date are:
*Bottigheimer, Ruth B. Grimms’ Bad Girls & Bold Boys: The Moral & Social Vision of the Tales.
*Grimm, Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm. The Complete Grimm’s Fairy Tales. New York: Pantheon Books, 1944.
*Mendelson, Michael. Forever Acting Alone: The Absence of Female Collaboration in Grimm’s Fairy Tales. Children’s Literature in Education. 28.3 (1997): 15.
*Paradiz, Valerie. Clever Maids: The Secret History of The Grimm Fairy Tales. New York: Perseus Books, 2005.
*Rowan, Karen E. Feminism and Fairy Tales. Women’s Studies.6.3 (1979): 21, 237.
*Warner, Marina. From the Beast to the Blonde. New York: Chatoo & Windus, 1994.
*Zipes, Jack. Breaking the Magic Spell: Radical Theories of Folk & Fairy Tales.New York: Methuen, 1979.
*Zipes, Jack. Don’t Bet on the Prince. New York: Methuen, 1986.
*Zipes, Jack. Fairy Tale As Myth, Myth As Fairy Tale. Lexington, The University Press of Kentucky, 1994.
*Zipes, Jack. The Oxford Companion to Fairy Tales. New York: Oxford University Press, 2000.
What I would love to do is have anyone who is interested in my activity to contribute. Thus, if you are interested please feel free to answer any of the questions below (or if you are very eager; you can answer them all). Thank you all so much for your time and effort. A hopeful student.
1) How would you define the essence (or the qualities) of a modern woman in the United States? Describe your image of what the modern woman represents in today's society. What are your images or conceptions of women based upon? (Or in other words, what objects in your life have aided in the formulation of your idea?)
2) How do you see the treatment of women in today's society in the economic, social, and domestic settings? (Please add in your own personal experiences when necessary).
3) In your opinion, are modern women portrayed as independent visionaries of their own future, or are they still entrapped/oppressed by images of the fairy tales "damsel in distress"?
4) What are some contemporary forms of media or literature that realistically portray the image of women in the United States? What makes the media's product so realistic in their representation of women?
5) Were exposed to fairy tales when you were little? If so, which tales were you knowledgeable of? Do you feel that your life as a young lady growing up, was affected by the stereotypes found in fairy tales? Did they have a direct impact on your behavior and actions? If so, how?
6) Do feel that fairy tales have a definite positive or negative impact on the social behaviors of children? How so?
7) Do you believe that fairy tales have a major impact on the development of children's gender identities? Or in other words, what kinds of images are children being shown to emulate from fairy tales? For boys? Girls? Are they healthy images that allow individual and independent growth? How so?
9) Is the representation of women in Grimm's' Fairy Tales still a predominating factor in your life as a woman or man? Have women evolved into more stronger and equal members of society?
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/3/05 8:04 am)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Hi dkontos.
I suggest that you try posting consistently to one thread if you want a conversation to develop.
Are you planning to quote from any personal experiences which people post?
IMO Zipes overemphasises victimhood.
1) Why does your question ask for descriptions of "a modern woman" singular? Which "modern" woman? Why does "the modern woman" (singular?!?) have to be a symbol and "represent" anything? Why can't there be many ideas (plural)?
3) Implies that historically real women have been "entrapped" by fictional fairy tales?!?
9) "Have women evolved into more stronger and equal members of society?" ?!? Implies that historically women have been weak?!? (Not working class women or American frontierswomen or... !!).
I know this post is critical but it's supposed to be constructive criticism and I hope you'll take it that way.
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dkontos
Unregistered User
(4/3/05 8:28 am)
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Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
When I refer to "modern woman", I am referring to qualities of women in today's modern society.
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/3/05 8:38 am)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Which implies that all American women share one set of qualities?
Loaded questions tend to elicit certain answers. Or questions about the questions...
You haven't said whether you intend to quote other people's personal experiences?
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Chris
Peltier
Registered User
(4/3/05 12:39 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Like Black Sheep, I am also not trying to be overly critical, but I have to ask about the subject header. Are you trying to lump women and children into one group? Why not ask about the impact of fairy tales on children and adults?
You say that you are interested in seeing the role that tales play in gender indentification in both boys and girls, but other than question #9, I do not see anywhere how that impact manefests itself in the lives of adult men. Without exploring that issue, it almost suggests that men are somehow able to shrug of the "snares" (if this is what you are arguing) of oppression and entrappment. It seems as though, if just for the sake of contrast, you should expand your questions to include:
What is the essence of a modern man?
Does the media realistically portray men?
What is the treatment of men in today's society in the economic, social, and domestic settings?
Were young men affected by fairy tales while growing up?
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/3/05 1:22 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
At the risk of encouraging the original poster (oh, don'tcha just
hate college-paper time on the Internet? ) the "men"
question is a good thread topic right there:
In one recent book, I had a character discuss why some males feel that even fairy tales are "against" them too, from a very early age--
In brief: We guys can listen to "Cinderella" at Story
Hour when we're six, and think, okay, it's a sorta exciting scene
that the clock's going to strike twelve, and all that, but what
else are we supposed to get out of it?--You obviously can't root
for the girl (ick!)...But if you want someone to finally be happy
out of all this, you can't publicly root for the prince either,
or the girls will all play the "Evil fairytales poisoning young
empowered girls' minds" card and call you a chauvinist pig
for wanting to see the prince finally get the one good girl. (Probably
the one thing he ever really wanted to do, for the first
time in his whole royal planned-out life.)
Aside from classic myth, or the lesser-known stories of tailors
and soldiers, about the only mass-media fairytale guys can
positively identify with is "Beauty & the Beast" (Beaumont/Cocteau
version), and Disney even wrote THAT bit of male-identification
out of the equation with their Beauty-centric "Express yourself"
version...
And to ask "Well, do guys even need fairy tales?"
is to bring up the whole question of their role as moral challenges--
We need them, but as long as anybody's reading them for anything
but the story, the deck's stacked against us.
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(4/3/05 1:31 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Okay DerekJ, I'm intrigued. What you mean by: "We need them, but as long as anybody's reading them for anything but the story, the deck's stacked against us."
Alice
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/3/05 1:49 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Well, everybody needs fairy tales, on the "depiction
of unusual moral challenges" level--
To use a modern comparison, look at the old b/w "Twilight Zone" as "modern fairy tales": Good people getting surprise rewards for their faith in non-duplicity, and bad people getting unusual and entertainingly appropriate karma for their particular sins, as dished out by some intangible/supernatural moral arbiter that gets the last word. (Except for the guy who dropped his glasses, we never could figure out what the whole point of that one was...)
Using that approach, one could, for instance, see "Cinderella" as a story of how uncompromising goodness is its own "beauty", and still trumps all those "fake" kinds, no matter how hard they may try to get around it.
But that's only if you're looking at stories as stories--
If, OTOH, one wants to pursue personal demons and take the academic road of looking at fairytales as "Neurotic Freudian depictions of how all those primitive, colorful 18th-cty. peasants who clearly didn't know any better tried to keep women in their place", you'll probably find what you'll seek. It may not be there, but you'll likely find it anyway if you try hard enough. Heaven knows we have enough people on the board looking.
...And, as stated, guys get the worst of it every time, just because every time they look for justly-earned happiness, there's usually "being happily married to the good girl, who deseves it" included in the package--
We get our tests plenty of times, we're just not always aware of
the other forms it takes...So the more obvious kind always makes
a good story.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/3/05 1:50 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Er ... is it just me, or is there a bit of an internal disjuncture between having an automatic "ick" reaction to rooting for a female protagonist but simultaneously feeling abashed about the possible misogyny of rooting for the prince?
And in terms of positive fairy tales for males ... that's a really interesting point. A strategic breakdown by gender points to a prevelance of masculine protagonists, historically speaking .... but most of those tales have been popularly overshadowed over the course of the last century, commensurate with the idea that fairy tales are for girls. Of course, most of the "girl appropriate" fairy tales, by media standards, have been the ones which reinforce the dominant feminine paradigms (plenty of pretty princesses, few Molly Whuppies). So, first, we have a model leading towards a self-selected audience consisting of gender-appropriate listeners, and then we have a kind of a continuing behavioral culling at work ... I'm just getting over a 103 degree fever (so I might no make much sense), but talk about food for thought! The interesting question, for me, would be how and why *both* groups work around the attempts at indoctrination to find the older roots of the tales ... are they necessarily working from two different angles, or are their "solutions" two sides of the same coin?
Edit: I posted about a second after you did, Derek, so I didn't get a chance to address your last post ... You said:
"...And, as stated, guys get the worst of it every time, just because every time they look for justly-earned happiness, there's usually "being happily married to the good girl, who deseves it" included in the package--"
How is that "getting the worst of it," exactly? The formula of "happily ever after" seems, for better or worse, to include nuptials for male *and* female protagonists ...
Edited by: Helen J Pilinovsky at: 4/3/05 1:55 pm
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Chris
Peltier
Registered User
(4/3/05 3:54 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Helen, you wrote:
"The formula of "happily ever after" seems, for better or worse, to include nuptials for male *and* female protagonists ..."
I've got to agree with you about that, whether talking about seventh sons, Puss N' Boots or Clever Peter and the Two Bottles, the "happily ever after" scenerio seems to generally include marriage in the bargain. I would assume that since most of these stories grew out of agrarian societies, having a spouse and a helpmate would be a great advantage.
You also wrote:
"The interesting question, for me, would be how and why *both* groups work around the attempts at indoctrination to find the older roots of the tales ... are they necessarily working from two different angles, or are their "solutions" two sides of the same coin?"
This leads me to recall Marina Warner's advice that depending on the storyteller's agenda, it's best to remember that the same story can impact audiences in different ways:
"Just as history belongs to the victors and words change their meanings with a change of power, stories depend on the tellers and those to whom they are told who might tell them again. 'Trust the artist,' D.H. Lawrence's famous dictum, fails to notice how intertwined the teller and the tale always are."
Hopefully that makes sense. I know that you are well familar with Warner, but I was also trying to address these points to the original poster, who might want to compare the Brothers Grimm to other - perhaps feminine - storytellers.
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/3/05 5:57 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
In Britain Derek the pantomime tradition and other forms of pop fairy tale culture prominently includes plenty of stories with strong male protagonists:
Jack and the Beanstalk
Dick Whittington
Aladdin
Robin Hood (although more of a folktale it has been absorbed into pantomime often as a "Babes in the Wood" tale)
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/3/05 5:57 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Well said, Chris! That's a very apt interpretation. I suppose that what I was trying to resolve, more simply, was whether there was a common strategy being utilized by boys who feel "othered" by media representations of fairy tales and girls who resent being "normalized" into the typical visions of femininity espoused by the popular presentations ... if there's some commonality between their respective characterizations.
I don't think that boys are victimized by the "silencing"
element of media fairy tales in quite the same way that girls are
by the demonstrations of model behavior; for one thing, media fairy
tales do tend to contain masculine role models who, in the popular
versions, if anything, have more active roles (for example,
in the Disney adaptations of "The Little Mermaid" and
"Sleeping Beauty" give more of a "voice" to
their respective princes then the older versions do); for another,
there are more numerous cultural alternatives presented for young
male viewers/recipients. There are a very different set of paradigms
at work in those presentations, however ... I'll ponder this a bit
further before posting more (because, with the flu, chances are
good that otherwise I'll just ramble endlessly ...).
For the original poster: I'd argue that for a project like the one which you set out above, you really do need to refine your problem set of examples. It's difficult to generalize about a collection of stories involving literally hundreds of tales types. You might want to consider presenting what you see as the dominant argument or model at work in the Grimms (using, perhaps, a single tale as an example) before you extrapolate their effects on modern culture ... I'd also echo the other posters who've recommended that you refine your questions. All of these issues that you raise are fascinating, but any one of them could make for a decent dissertation topic (and, even at that, you might be asked to narrow your focus). What is the overall issue that you are trying to address here? Whether the stereotypes (whatever they might be) to be found in the Grimms fairytales carry negative connotations in todays society? I'd say yes, but only in that they've contributed to the more damaging stereotypes which have grown out of them/which they degenerated into ... if anything, in their own ways, the original stories which the Grimms set down presented powerful images of women struggling to triumph in a society which provided rare opportunities for autonomy. The editorial changes which the Grimms instituted throughout their tenure, now ... those are another story. Just my two cents ...
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Chris
Peltier
Registered User
(4/3/05 6:40 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Helen, you wrote:
"I suppose that what I was trying to resolve, more simply, was whether there was a common strategy being utilized by boys who feel "othered" by media representations of fairy tales and girls who resent being "normalized" into the typical visions of femininity espoused by the popular presentations ... if there's some commonality between their respective characterizations. "
Hopefully one day children will be able to look to the main character - whether male or female - and be able to identify with his or her struggles and triumphs, and not see a gender. I would love for a boy to be able to relate to the loyalty and craftiness of Kate Crackernuts, and want to assume those traits for himself - be like Kate.
Anyway, I'm sorry that you have the flu!
Hope you get to feeling better,
~Chandra~(in my gender bending fashion, also known as "Chris")
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/3/05 6:48 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
>>In Britain Derek the pantomime tradition and other forms of pop fairy tale culture prominently includes plenty of stories with strong male protagonists:
Jack and the Beanstalk
Dick Whittington
Aladdin<<
Well, the problem is, most of the "interesting" well-known male protagonists are either just:
A) "simple luck" heroes who stumbled into a sweet deal (throw Puss-in-Boots' dumb but well-meaning owner into the Jack-Dick-Aladdin trilogy for a matched set),
or
B) characters who beat impossible situations with cleverness: The Brave Little Tailor, the youngest of the Three Brothers, or the soldier who followed the Dancing Princesses.
(More than Robin Hood, who falls into the Folklore/Tall-Tale category with its own rules.)
The latter are clearly hard workers for their rewards, but don't give quite as much the idea of rewarded sacrifice as, say, Grimm's Bearskin or deBaumont's Beast.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/3/05 7:30 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Oops! Sorry about the error, Chandra ... I couldn't agree more with
your point concerning gender and empathy. I've been fascinated for
a long time by the logic behind masculinizing video game and cinematic
productions for children (i.e., the belief that girls can empathize
with a masculine protagonist, but that boys will be unable to empathize
with a female protagonist). Actually, I've recently been reading
a study of the Alien trilogy as being one of the first
works to turn that construction on its head by changing the gender,
and only the gender of the lead in casting Sigourney Weaver
as Ripley .... The study - Alien Women:The Making of Lt. Ellen
Ripley (ed. Gallardo & Smith), which really is marvelous,
not just for fans of the movie or the genre - goes on to explore
the idea that while the "female hero" as a three-dimensional
figure hasn't caught on as tenaciously as one would hope, the idea
of the female lead has, under the logic that sex appeal
can substitute for empathy in terms of audience reaction. While
that's, a) offensive in and of itself, and, b) inapplicable for
the age group in question, one does have to wonder what the juvenile
equivalent that would make female leads palatable to a younger generation
would have to be ...
Edited by: Helen J Pilinovsky at: 4/3/05 7:31 pm
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Chris
Peltier
Registered User
(4/3/05 9:35 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
No problemo about the name - the ezboard account was first put in my husband's name, but I keep forgetting to sign my name to my posts for clarity.
I love the character of Ripley in the Alien triolgy - she was a subject of much discussion in our SF film class. I believe that Ripley's gender challenges certain expectations in a genre that has traditionally catered to the "male gaze". In much the same way in 1968 that Night of the Living Dead confronted viewers with an African American lead, audiences in both films - as well as the other characters - were expected to follow a nontraditional leader. In the case of the other characters, it is a command that ammounts to "follow or die". It does bother me that director Ridley Scott still felt compelled to film Weaver in her underwear, as though that lure of sex appeal had to sneak in somewhere.
The whole notion of "alien" suggests fear of the "other", and as long as filmmakers, writers, and people in general believe that a female lead must exude sex appeal in order to be interesting, we will never overcome the divide of supposed "otherness" between the sexes.
You wrote:
"one does have to wonder what the juvenile equivalent that would make female leads palatable to a younger generation would have to be ... "
Let's hope that good writing and strong characterization will prevail in the long run!
Hope that's not too much of a diatribe!
~Chandra~
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/4/05 9:56 am)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Derek when I posted the list of Jack and the Beanstalk, Dick Whittington, Aladdin, and Robin Hood I was responding to your claim that:
"Aside from classic myth, or the lesser-known stories of tailors and soldiers, about the only mass-media fairytale guys can positively identify with is "Beauty & the Beast"
I'm glad you've now redefined your problem to:
"Well, the problem is, most of the "interesting" well-known male protagonists are either just:
A) "simple luck" heroes who stumbled into a sweet deal, or
B) characters who beat impossible situations with cleverness."
But I'm unsure what alternative plots you would prefer? The only one you mention is rewarded sacrifice which is _the_ main male stereotype in Christian culture and I'm not convinced it's preferable to the themes which you reject without giving reasons for your rejection of them.
Could you give a few examples of fairytale type plots with a "good" main character which don't involve luck/smarts/hard work like J&tB, DW, A & RH and some reasons why you think they're preferable to luck/smarts/hard work?
Although some versions of Robin Hood are ballads/histories/legends/folktales/tall
tales there is a strong tradition in Britain of Robin Hood in classic
fairytale plots such as Babes in the Wood (as I posted before).
You can't simply exclude a tale because it doesn't fit in with your
argument.
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/4/05 12:14 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
Don't know why you're still including Robin Hood in with the lottery-winner "How to Succeed Without Really Trying" characters of Jack, Al, Dick, and Puss's owner--
Even on the "no set storyline/episodic adventures" folklore scale, Robin's appeal is as the "endlessly resourceful" Clever character, like the Tailor, Jack the Giant Killer, or, ftm, Bugs Bunny.
And besides, I'd already given Grimm's Bearskin, and the Beast (and
if you want to throw in King Thrushbeard, it's a bit of a stretch)
as two examples of "reverse Cinderella" characters who
had insurmountable physical-appearance odds (don't we all? ), but
conquered them with charity, understanding, gentlemanliness and
self-aware moral straightforwardness, that any TRUE person could
ultimately see in the end--
Maybe "sacrifice" is the wrong word, but those pursuing
gender issues might be surprised to learn that guys enjoy
hearing "Image isn't everything..." too.
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/4/05 1:23 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
So when you talk exclusively about your interest in male characters that's normal but when others talk about their interest in female characters they're "pursuing gender issues"? Since when do only women have gender?
I enjoyed tales about both male and female protagonists when I was a kid and I don't feel excluded by discussions about Other people now.
I see no difference between "lottery-winner" pact with the Christian Devil Bearskin and Dick pact with a talking cat Whittington or between thieving Jack and thieving Robin. They, and Aladdin, all use a combination of luck/smarts/hard work. Tales are like cakes you can slice any way you please, within their fundamental shape, to get the sub-category you desire.
Thank you for explaining your reasons for nominating Bearskin. I believe I understand what you intended. I wouldn't slice the tale that way myself but it's certainly a valid way to share out the chunks of ideas in the story.
Charity is perhaps too easy if one has unlimited resources and is being charitable for the selfish good-of-one's-soul as Bearskin does.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by understanding... sympathy with the father's poverty? That's an interesting thought as it encourages a quality often suppressed in definitions of masculinity. I like it. I wonder if anyone can think of other examples?
Gentlemanliness is a quality I'd need to see defined as, for me in Britain, it has overwhelming class implications (which it also would have had for the Grimms but they probably would've had more favourable reactions to the word/concept).
Self-aware moral straightforwardness? Making a pact with the Christian Devil for one's own personal/individual advantage? Co-operating with the supposed cause of all evil? Moral? By whose standards?
Like I said I'm not convinced that Bearskin stands out as a particularly Good Thing in comparison to the more popular fairy tales with male protagonists.
"...guys enjoy hearing "image isn't everything..." too." Yes but which fairytales are telling them it is? There are as many country bumpkins as handsome princes.
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Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/4/05 2:58 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
I’m always nervous when people look to fairy tales for moral lessons, but this thread has brought up some fascinating ideas. It seems to me that so many folk and fairy tales are about the success of the underdog, the triumph of the one least likely to succeed, that this theme tends to overshadow morals most of the time. Lots of characters do win out in their situations by luck, cleverness or outside help, but I guess that I don’t see that as being a bad thing. Cleverness should be encouraged, and one of the hardest lessons to learn is how to ask for help when you need it.
Is it somehow more important for girls to be “good” than for boys? The phrase “boys will be boys,” for example, seems to imply that there are different standards. And this is a far-fetched link, but there also seem to be substantially more male trickster figures than female in folklore. Perhaps self-sacrifice isn’t/wasn’t big on the list of masculine virtues when many of these tales were being circulated and shaped.
And now, because I cannot help myself, lots of college and high school paper-writers post questions here. While I admit that certain questions get asked an awful lot (I love the sites new FAQ pages for this very reason!), one of the things that makes this discussion board the fine thing that it is, is the general atmosphere of welcome and support. "Speaking" patronizingly or slightingly of posters, as in
“At the risk of encouraging the original poster (oh, don'tcha just hate college-paper time on the Internet?”
seems mean-spirited to me, DerekJ. Though I may be projecting my own memories of first posting to this site and worrying that everyone would think I was an idiot. A remark like that would have scared me off for good.
Best,
Erica
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/4/05 2:59 pm)
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Re: Impact of fairy tales on Children and Women
>>I see no difference between "lottery-winner" pact with the Christian Devil Bearskin and Dick pact with a talking cat Whittington or between thieving Jack and thieving Robin. They, and Aladdin, all use a combination of luck/smarts/hard work.<<
Witness the attempts of movie/TV adaptations to give Jack an artificial
"reason" for stealing from the Giant (eg. avenging his
father, giant stole from the village, etc.) to cover up the existing
fact that Jack doesn't seem to particularly expend any effort
in getting his gold and hen--
He stumbles into good fortune by being a dope, the Giant obligingly
puts the treasures within easy reach and suffers fits of narcolepsy,
and with the Wife's aiding-and-abetting, it's even an inside job.
Whereas Robin at least uses disguises, subterfuge and fast-talking to outwit his opponents, and doesn't even keep the goods, doing it all for the kicks, principle, and iconoclastic satisfaction.
>>"...guys enjoy hearing "image isn't everything..." too." Yes but which fairytales are telling them it is? There are as many country bumpkins as handsome princes.<<
Again, "King Thrushbeard" (though a bit vengeful/misogynistic around the edges) is probably the most straightforward metaphoric illustration of the old chestnut about "Girls date the Bad Boys but marry the Nice Guys"--
Ie., that if women can't see the longrun value of stability, income and character over image and indulgent self-entitlement, and jump in the wrong direction, they end up being aware of just what particular opportunities they missed out.
...A bit negatively wish-fulfillment for guys, and more of a "nyah-nyah" directed at the female readers, but does at least install that males have to be more aware of what positive qualities they do have.
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