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Author
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Comment
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phouka
Registered User
(4/3/05 12:18 pm)
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Conflicting phouka myths
I have two questions, why do some phouka myths say that they are shape shifters and tricksters, but helpful, and some say they're shape shifters, but homicidal? Is it because some phouka myths get mixed up with kelpies (which I always thought were water dwelling) or did they get mixed up in Celtic oral traditions through out the centuries? Can somebody please clarify this for me?
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/3/05 6:02 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
Why can't pwca, pooka, bucca etc be individual characters as well as conforming to their type?
I'm a human type but I'm an individual too Phouka. Sometimes I'm helpful and sometimes I'm mischievous.
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catja1
Registered User
(4/3/05 6:35 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
Because there really isn't any One True Way in folklore, and especially not in fairy lore. Sometimes fairies are helpful, and sometimes harmful. *Most* stories about phoukas and their relations, that I'm aware of, show them as somewhat malicious tricksters, but there are some where they are helpful, or at least aren't harmful. And for a trickster figure, that's not a contradiction. Also, as Black Sheep said, no reason individual phoukas can't be, well, individuals.
Oral culture is *never* going to be absolutely consistent about
things, because people's ideas about things will differ depending
on the time, the place, or the attitudes of the individual storyteller.
If you stop expecting everything to add up into a coherent whole,
you'll save yourself a lot of grief.
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phouka
Registered User
(4/3/05 7:20 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
I feel like I should apologize for being young and overly sensible
...
Edited by: phouka at: 4/3/05 7:25 pm
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redtriskell
Registered User
(4/3/05 9:59 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
As a side note, kelpies are indeed water dwelling. Though I don't think of them in the same way as pookas. Kelpies always seemed more overtly and purposefully malevolent to me. I always thought of pookas as neutral in terms of morality, like many kinds of fey. Their concepts of "good" or "evil" being too far removed from humans. Plus, my first exposure to pookas was Harvey- the Jimmy Stewart film. Harvey is wonderful to Dowd; to everyone else... not so nice. As an adult, I still love that movie- even if it does stray from a more traditional idea of what a pooka is.
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aka
Greensleeves
Registered User
(4/3/05 11:35 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
I think like many trickster characters, pookas tend to be capricious: they have their own motivation and their own moral compass. An excellent modern pooka character with all its folkloric charm intact appears in Peter S. Beagle's marvellous novel TAMSIN.
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Black
Sheep
Registered User
(4/4/05 10:03 am)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
I love Harvey (or whatever the film was called). James Stewart is one of the best screen actors of all time and he gave one of his best performances in that silly, lovable, little film.
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Nalo
Registered User
(4/4/05 10:38 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
What I love about the phouka is how it seems to have made it to the Caribbean and re-invented itself as the rolling calf in Jamaica (calf covered in coffin chains, eyes of fire, chases people out late at night until they die of exhaustion) and the lagahoo in Trinidad (from "loup-garou"); a donkey with gold teeth wearing a *watch* chain, a westkit and two pairs of wachekongs (tennis shoes). Also terrifies people to death.
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redtriskell
Registered User
(4/4/05 11:02 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
Nalo, I have to admit I would certainly terrified if I ever encountered a gold-toothed donkey in a weskit, watchchain, and tennis shoes. Do the people just drop dead from fright, or does the lagahoo chase them down as the rolling calf does its victims? Also, is there a particular kind of person this thing seeks out to terrify, or is it just whoever happens to be unfortunate enough to cross its path? I love the few stories I know from the Carribbean- I wish I could find a good collection.
In re-reading the above, it struck me as rather tongue-in-cheek, but that isn't my intent. I really do think I would be quite scared of such a creature. Even if I couldn't help laughing at its strange attire.
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Crceres
Registered User
(4/5/05 10:34 pm)
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Hedley Kow
Is the hedley kow a form of pooka, then? The version I know is mischievous rather than malicious, but it does shapeshift and perform random acts of vandalism (and runs off giggling madly).
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redtriskell
Registered User
(4/6/05 12:55 am)
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Re: Hedley Kow
The way I understand it, the hedley kow is a fairy sprite which takes the form of said kow in order to run off with victims. Rather like the various fairy horses, dogs, and other assorted creatures who delight in carrying off the hapless- either to give them a good dunking or to carry them into the fairy realm.
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janeyolen
Registered User
(4/6/05 6:07 pm)
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Re: Hedley Kow
You want a trickster but on thewhole a positive character--try Emma Bull's WAR FOR THE OAKS.
Jane
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avalondeb
Registered User
(4/8/05 6:36 pm)
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Re: Trickster Images
I don't think that Pouka's are either good or bad. There has been a healthy mix of the two throughout mythology.
Kokopelli - basically good, gives gift of song
Puck - plays tricks, but in "good fun"
Loki - arranges to kill Balder
Then you have the actual Pouka's themselves. Charles deLint has a pretty cool Pouka named Jenna in his book, "Drink Down the Moon". You have the bad Pouka in "Darby O'Gill and the Little People". And lastly, you have the good Pouka in "Harvey" (one of my favorite movies, btw).
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Nalo
Registered User
(4/10/05 6:55 pm)
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Re: Conflicting phouka myths
"I have to admit I would certainly terrified if I ever encountered a gold-toothed donkey in a weskit, watchchain, and tennis shoes."
NH: Yes, so would I. It's extra creepy, knowing that something that looks so laughably silly can and will scare you to death. The stories I've read are a bit unclear on the process, but I think the rolling calf at least chases people who are out too late at night, and in isolated places. If you're looking for Caribbean folk tales, Jamaican folklorist Philip Sherlock did a few collections of them.
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katiebjorn
Registered User
(4/19/05 10:28 am)
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more pooka books
The Grey Horse by R. A. MacAvoy set in 1881 Ireland has a pooka thats goes from man to Connemara pony and back again. The Merry Gentry series by Laurell K. Hamilton also has a main character that is half pooka.
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Nalo
Registered User
(4/20/05 8:06 am)
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Re: Hedley Kow
Yes, love the phouka in _War for the Oaks._ Particularly love that he looks like Prince. *rowr*
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janeyolen
Registered User
(4/22/05 5:52 am)
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Re: Hedley Kow
That the phouka looks like Prince is the ONLY thing I don't like about him. Here I differ greatly with my friends Emma Bull and Terri W who seem to have a thing about Prince. I find him icky! Maybe it's an age thing.
Jane
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tlchang37
Registered User
(4/22/05 9:58 pm)
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Re: Hedley Kow
Apparently it's *not* just an age thing....
Tara
Edited by: tlchang37 at: 4/22/05 10:04 pm
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darklingthrush
Registered User
(4/23/05 9:03 am)
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kelpie
Now even on kelpies which are besides one story I've read invariably evil creatures. There is that one story one which I loved for all of the doom-filled love and bravery of the maid sorts. It was in this collection called A Fair Stream of Silver. It had the kelpie pretty much glamorizing most of the men of a clan on one of the Scottish isles and then drowning/kidnapping them as they rode his back (it's been over 10 years forgive my memory for being a bit foggy.) He then (the kelpie) strangely enough falls in love with a maiden of the clan. I particularly liked her I remember because as compared to the other young women of the village she is less silly, flirtatious and seems to have a sensible head on her shoulders. Albeit she does fall for the handsome stranger that is of course a shape-shifted kelpie. When they are lying down after I would assume some love-making and his head is in her lap, there is this great scene where she finds out he is the kelpie. As she is running her fingers through his hair it becomes coarser, covered in film and wet, she looks down to see that her lover is actually the kelpie. Now my memory is very foggy. I don't remember if she just keeps her terror silent or up and accosts him at the moment, or runs away. I do know that later when he comes back for her and offers her everything --a place with hime underwater and his love (for he loves her human warmth--I think this is another idea I liked in the story)--she turns the tables on him. My love of doomed romances at this point in my life (early teenagedom) meant that I loved this story. But its one of a kind and I'm not sure how much it is based on oral tales of the kelpie.
Just thought I would bring that up to confuse the waters a bit more. Personally I love the trickster nature. Who doesn't grow up secretly loving Peter Pan and Puck?
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