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Author
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Comment
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(4/19/05 6:58 am)
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Are there any decent parents out there?
Something Veronica said in the Beauty and the Beast thread made me curious. Are there any fairy tale parents who aren't incompetent or evil? I wrack my brains and I think of parents who sent their kids off to do the impossible, who foolishly boast about their children and land them in trouble, who actively send them into evil, or who blithely ignore the dangers they've put their kids in, and so on. The kindest seem to die off. There's got to be some story where the parents are at least decent... are there? My mind is drawing a blank at the moment.
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Erica
Carlson
Registered User
(4/19/05 8:21 am)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
The Mother in Snow White, Rose Red isn't so bad. There's not much good "active parenting" in the tales that I can think of, perhaps because the stories tend to be centered on the (usually) young protagonist. I suppose you can look at Kate Crackernuts' mother as trying to help her daughter by cursing the sister, but I'm not tempted to hold her up as a parenting model! The most helpful mothers that come to mind just now are the dead ones who help their daughters from beyond the grave. There seems to be a lack of good parents in many contemporary children's books, too.
There is the genre of cautionary tales, where children ignore the good advice or their parents, or simply disobey them, and come to horrible ends. But, assuming that the goal of parenting is to help your child to grow up into a self-sufficient, reasonably good person, those aren't really success stories.
Best,
Erica
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/19/05 12:18 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
Also, the dad in "Hansel & Gretel" may seem henpecked
at the beginning, but actively protests "Oh, we couldn't do
that!..." to his wife, and survives to restore a happy
household for the children at the end.
While on the maternal side, Little Red Riding Hood's mother suggests a nice outing and gives careful warning, Aladdin and Jack's mothers had the thankless burden of "lazy" sons (if in less imaginative ways of dealing with them), and Andersen had an entire stable family for the Little Mermaid and an understandably overprotective "mother" for Thumbelina.
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midori
snyder
Registered User
(4/19/05 2:30 pm)
ezSupporter
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
South African tales have both types of parents--those who are brutal and cruel and those who are loving, sheltering and nuturing. In some cases it depends on the function of the tale...for rites of passage tales of young adults, parents are part of the world the child must leave behind--and for girls not return. So those parents seem to be less wonderful.
But there are tales that deal with mothers/fathers as stories that are part of adult married life and the parents (who become the protagonists of the tales) that are often positive. The woman who travels to the land of the dead to bring back her child, the youngest wife who hides her beautiful new born from the jealous cowives (who have only given birth to crows) and nutures him in the woods alone, the woman longing for a child who feeds the starving doves and gives birth to a child she cherishes and assists into becoming the hero he is meant to be.
There are extensions of the parents and parental role in the fantastic world...a cannibal mother and father who nuture a wayward, runaway daughter, and a cornucopia that dispense food and advice from a deceased mother. And in the Mwindo Epic from the Congo the hero Mwindo relies on a rope tied around his waist, (like an umbilical cord) while the other end is held by his powerful Aunt who offers advice and assistence through the rope as he ventures into the underworld to fight his destructive father. She is the creative force in his life that keeps him from becoming a destructive tryrant and throughout his tale she guides and nutures him at key moments.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/19/05 4:07 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
There's one story--title escapes me for a minute--about a girl who can't get rid of a persistent and unwanted suitor, and her mom gives her advice about requesting various dresses from him and then going out to seek her fortune. That mother is neither incompetent nor evil, though she does disappear from the story after the beginning.
I suppose if one broadens one's viewpoint to include world mythologies
as well as fairy tales, you get a whole host of powerful, competent
parents, like Demeter, for instance. But I was really referring
to the Western European fairy-tale tradition, in which parents surrender
their babies to witches, mothers attempt to murder their daughters,
(step)mothers enslave their (step)daughters while fathers...don't
seem to do much of anything about it, fathers abandon their children
in the woods, fathers attempt to force their daughters into marrying
them...heh. It's enough to make you reconsider the wisdom of Children
of the Corn.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 4/19/05 5:23 pm
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gigi
Unregistered User
(4/19/05 6:09 pm)
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good parents
There is one story I seem to remember 'The goose girl' I believe.
In it the Mother cuts her finger and puts the drops of blood on a hankerchief to which she gives to her daughter for protection as she leaves home to get married. And the girl loses it and the evil servant takes her place and then marries the Prince. THere is the horse which traveled with them who could talk and so the Servant had him killed.
The princess is reduced to a goose girl. But the dead horse's head talks to her everyday saying "If only your mother would see you she would despair."
Well It was to that effect....But the Point. is the Mother tried to Protect her daughter...
And the Father/King in Dearer than salt. he loves his daughter but they fall out only of a misunderstanding.
gigi
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AliceCEB
Registered User
(4/19/05 6:11 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
It's a relief that all parents aren't portrayed as awful--thank
you Midori, et al. for pointing out the other tales--although I
really do see your point Veronica. Those were the tales I was thinking
about when I first posted. I always wondered why Hansel and Gretel's
dad did such a poor job protecting his kids if he loved them as
much as he claimed. And I am suspicious about what killed his wife
and about the fact that he was so happy to see the kids once they
had truck loads of treasure.(Okay, okay, so he was happy the other
time too--still...)
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DerekJ
Unregistered User
(4/19/05 6:17 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
>>I always wondered why Hansel and Gretel's dad did such a
poor job protecting his kids if he loved them as much as he claimed.
And I am suspicious about what killed his wife and about the fact
that he was so happy to see the kids once they had truck loads of
treasure. (Okay, okay, so he was happy the other time too--still...)<<
Most productions (not sure about the opera, but SDFTT springs to mind) cast dual roles for the witch and the stepmother--
Leaving some ambiguity over just how the stepmother could
exit the scene so coincidentally at the same time that the witch
did...
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catja1
Registered User
(4/19/05 7:53 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
Well, it's a bit of the "happy families are all alike..." thing, isn't it? If everyone is happy and content, where's the crisis, or the tension, or the spur to action? More to the point, as Anne of Green Gables noted, if everyone in stories behaved themselves, there wouldn't be any stories.
A great deal, I think, depends on whether the action of the story is primarily domestic, or primarily external to the home. If the action is centered around the house, than if everything is happy, there's no *plot*. Where would "The Juniper Tree," "One-Eyes, Two-Eyes, Three-Eyes," and other stories of that nature be without their malevolent mothers? If the story is to take place outside the home, you need some way of getting the child/young adult protagonist *outside*. Boys have it easier -- they're allowed, and even expected, to go out and seek their fortunes. But girls were supposed to stay home until they were chosen by a husband, not go out and find one on their own. So, to get a female protagonist out of the house, there had to be some kind of compelling reason, and parental abuse, neglect, or bad decision-making is a good one. If one or both of her parents are dead, than you get to split the difference: the parent is absent enough for a plot to occur, but not necessarily blameworthy, and sometimes the dead parent is actively helpful -- though the help wouldn't be needed if the parent weren't dead in the first place.
It's the same reason a good chunk of children's literature features
orphaned protagonists: for young, vulnerable people, especially
girls, to be able to have adventures in the wide world, you need
to remove the chief impediments to those kind of adventures -- namely,
mom and dad. Oliver Twist would never have fallen in with Fagin's
gang, Anne Shirley would never have melted Marilla's heart, Mary
Lennox would never have come to Misselthwaite Manor, if their parents
had been living. Hence, no story. Parents are the chief forces operating
on children's lives, and if those parents are incompetent or absent,
then there's instant setup for a story, and also, instant sympathy.
A side benefit is that any rulebreaking can be explained away a
"no one was there to say no" or "the person saying
no is Evil."
Edited by: catja1 at: 4/19/05 8:01 pm
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/20/05 12:39 am)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
I'm with you, Alice, when it comes to H&G's dad. The whole "She maaaaaaade me abandon you" defense doesn't impress me at all!
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darklingthrush
Registered User
(4/23/05 10:18 am)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
Yes if there were decent parents in the stories, wouldn't they necessarily become stories about the parents rather than the children. It is most definately a way of forcing the young one out of the nest. I do find though that once the child in the story has grown a bit and becomes a parent they are quite good...I'm namely thinking of the Girl without Hands, some variations of the Seven Swans/Ravens. The mother never stops trying her very hardest to protect her children and hope for them which I find very heartening. One of my favorite fairy tales involves the daughter and father reconciling which is again not necessarily about parenting but more about the strength, steadfastness and love of the protaganist. The story would be Cap O Rushes. I often tell my parents that I love them as much as meat loves salt.
The parent abandoning the child emotionally, physically by choice or death in my mind represents that shift from childhood to adulthood. Perhaps a bit earlier than we are comfortable for when we read the stories...but the child has to learn to rely on their own strengths and resiliencies. You can still find some beautiful family dynamics in the love and loyalty between siblings but I'm afraid most parents go the way of plot device.
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Dark Siren
Unregistered User
(4/23/05 1:29 pm)
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Re: Are there any decent parents out there?
Veronica,that story about the girl with the dresses sounds a bit like Donkeyskin to me.Could it be an interpritation?<sp.>
Gigi,have you never read Shannon Hale's version of the Goose Girl?The Queen despairs of her daughter,sees sending her to Bayern as a way of getting rid.The blood-and-hankie bit is really just for publicity/show.It's her sister,Ani's aunt,that is the maternal figure when Ani's young - she warns her about Selia(which Ani forgets,unfortunately),she teaches her to talk to the birds - which eventually saves her life,and above all simply loves her.Gilsa,Finn's mother,takes over the role when Selia betrays Ani and she needs help.(The whole aunt thing kinda goes back to that Mwindo story Midori was talking about.)
To be fair though,Ani's father did his best.He loved her - it was more than his wife ever did.
In B&B,Beauty's father - well,there's no doubting his love for her.But the stepmother in Cinderella doesn't exaactly lift your heart.
I think the point is that writers,be they Grimm or Anderson or Hale or even Meg Cabot,use the parental role however it fits into their story.In Cabot's three main series(Mediator,Princess Diaries,Missing)there's always the harrassed and slightly absent-minded one(mainly the mother,though in Missing it's her dad)and the one who's kinda distant,whether physically or emotionally - Jess' mom doesn't understand her;Mia's dad is the prince of Genovia,in the Meditterrean,and therefore is *extra* busy;Suze's dad is dead - a ghost,actually.But they're always there when their daughter needs them - Jess' mom gives her advice;Mia's dad is her ally against Grandmere(isn't everyone?);and Suze's dad helps her save Jesse.
Parents can't always be perfect,because they're human.But apart
from the evil ones,even though we dispear of them,they will mostly
come through for you.I've given at least four examples,I could give
numerous more - but I won't give you more reading. Any mistakes
they make can be used with our own children - don't do it.Even when
doing wrong,they teach us.We can't complain about that.
PS.What is this B&B convo everyone's talking about?!
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Jess
Unregistered User
(4/23/05 9:43 pm)
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H & G
Veronica,
My thoughts on Hansel and Gretel: the family was starving and the parents really couldn't bear to watch their children starve in front of their eyes (even the "wicked mother/step-mother"). So, they sent them off with the hope that they could fend for themselves better than the parents could provide for them (this was actually not unheard of in medival times). The children return to a dead mother because she has died of starvation or starvation related illness.
Or perhaps I give them too much credit.
Jess
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Judith Berman
Unregistered User
(4/25/05 8:15 pm)
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Bad parents
I was recently struck when reading "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" (the book!) to my son that it's unusual in a children's book for a whole family to have an adventure together. There is a part where the children are separated from the parents, but it's a relatively small one.
A writer named Rick Epstein (brother of a friend of mine) once had a column on a related subject from the point of view of his children--nothing really interesting ever happens until the parents leave. It's parents' job to make life uninteresting and predictable, after all.
But I think there's also a psychological issue beyond this. (I'm not a fan of programmatic psychological interpretations of fairytales, but if stories didn't deal with our emotions, we wouldn't find them compelling.)
The "deserted child" theme is extremely widespread around the world, very emotionally satisfactory for many people. (=Child abandoned for one reason another, is aided by supernatural beings, wins treasure, returns a hero and sometimes punishes the people who were bad to him.) And who never felt abandoned, if only for an hour or two, emotionally or otherwise, by one's own parents, or imagined one's REAL parents were other, much better people? My five year old recently said to me, "Mommy, I HATE you," followed after a moment of obvious discomfort by, "I don't hate you, I just hate your giving me a timeout."
What I'm trying to say is that the evil parents in stories can serve as stand-ins for these negative emotions that everyone has to greater or lesser extent.
Judith
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/25/05 9:51 pm)
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Re: Bad parents
Oh, I quite agree. On a more literal level, though, as a child, I always thought it was quite obvious why children's books had loads of orphans and inattentive parents: it is impossible to go on or enjoy a magical adventure with someone running around after you saying "Did you wash your hands before eating? Isn't it getting near your bedtime? I don't care if that other girl used the magical wishing coin--I'm not her mother. If she jumped off a bridge, would you? Under no circumstances may you accompany Finn MacCool on his quest, young lady! It's dangerous and in any case you have school tomorrow." Nobody needs that kind of humiliation.
Edited by: Veronica Schanoes at: 4/25/05 9:52 pm
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/26/05 6:32 am)
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good parents
There was a good adoptive father in Grimm, who found a baby in an eagle's nest. But he wasn't present during the exciting part. In Calvino there are some good parents: the mother in "The Chicory Gatherers", several indulgent fathers in comic Cinderella variants iirc, among others. However none really involved in the action, that I recall.
This same question has come up on forums about current children's literature. At a certain maturity level, a children's adventure is something that happens without the parents; otherwise it wouldn't be much of an adventure, or it would be the parent's adventure. The really nice parents, as in Swallows and Amazons, E. Nesbit, Edward Eager, etc, are absent or must be deceived for their own good. :-) Even Anne Blythe had children who protected her from their troubles.
In Elizabeth Enright's books the father and nurse aren't so far away, but the adventures are much milder, and the parent figures aren't involved in the main action.
In _The Yellow House_, the mother _is_ the hero, but the age level is younger, and the more exciting the incident, the further out of it the mother is.
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darklingthrush
Registered User
(4/26/05 11:17 am)
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Re: good parents
Oh! Why didn't I think of this earlier. Ok it's not a Grimm's but the story about the Moon Princess in Japan. There is the one version where of course she is found in by the bamboo cutter in the bamboo itself. The one version I'm thinking of she makes up the seemingly impossible tasks for her suitors because she does not want to leave her adoptive parents. The relationship in this particular story between the parents and daughter is very loving and gentle. Kaguya-Hime. I realize there are quite a few variations on this tale but I was always struck at least in the one version I read by the very sweet loyalty she felt towards the old bamboo cutter and his wife.
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/26/05 1:36 pm)
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good adoptive parents
Hm, adoptive parents, good or bad, do seem to be more often involved with the action; or parents that have difficulty conceiving, then get some sort of odd child. There are several stories like "The Snow Maiden" where a couple wishes for a child, finally get or find one made of snow. Also "Hans My Hedgehog" iirc. Those parents are very good to the child.
"Mother Holle" is further yet removed from being a 'real' parent, but a powerful good mother figure.
I wonder if there is some reason that adoptive parents function better in a story than real ones, whether good or bad. The housekeeper in the Melendy family stories, Nancy Drew's Hannah Gruen....
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mmcphie
Unregistered User
(4/27/05 4:08 am)
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A good mother
What about the mother in the folktale "Wiley and the Hairyman"? Wiley and his mama are both clever, and together they defeat the Hairyman. She is a good and loving mother, protecting her child from the one who killed his father.
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/27/05 5:17 pm)
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Some good mother figures
Oh, hey, there's also the goat mother with the seven kids (goats) who takes very good care of them and rescues them when they disobey her and get eaten by a wolf.
In “The Wolf and the Seven Little Kids” six kids are swallowed by
a wolf. The mother and the seventh kid find the wolf asleep. “Then
the kid had to run home and fetch scissors, and a needle and thread,
and the goat cut open the monster's stomach, and hardly had she
made one cut, than one little kid thrust its head out, and when
she cut farther, all six sprang out one after another, and were
all still alive, and had suffered no injury whatever, for in his
greediness the monster had swallowed them down whole.” See The
Wolf and the Seven Little Kids
In an African tale, “Unanana and the Elephant,” www.pjtss.net/lib/pj/t19.htm,
the elephant swallows human children; their mother Unanana manages
to get swallowed also to find them. Inside the elephant’s stomach
is a whole country “like long red rolling hills,” populated by other
people, cows, and chickens the elephant had swallowed. She makes
a plan and gets them all out.
In Grimm's LRRH ("Little Red-Cap") a passing huntsman
who takes scissors and lets out the girl and grandmother. However
afterwards another wolf tried the same thing and “Little Red-Cap”
and her grandmother defeated him without help. See Little
Red-Cap
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