|
Author
|
Comment
|
Lilyyy
Unregistered User
(9/27/04 2:24 am)
|
salvation of Andersen's Fairy Talaes
Hans Christian Andersen's story has characteristics and one of them is the thinking of Christian. "The little match girl" is salvation story I think. She finally goes to glory, you know. Does anybody know more salvation story in Andersen's Fairy Tales?
|
janeyolen
Registered User
(9/27/04 6:50 am)
|
Re: salvation of Andersen's Fairy Talaes
Many of his stories are about salvation or heaven: look at "The Little Mermaid" and "The Red Shoes" especially.
Jane
|
Helen J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(9/27/04 10:06 am)
|
Also ...
I'd say that almost all of his stories have some element of redemption, to greater or lesser degrees: in "The Little Match Girl," "The Red Shoes," and "The Little Mermaid" the messages are far more overt (i.e., employing the terminology of Christianity, using specific references to Heaven), but the themes are present even in putatively non-religious stories such as "The Nightingale" or "The Snow Queen." In the latter, particularly, there's an enormous emphasis on the value not just of love, but of spirituality. You might want to take a look at some of the biographies of Andersen - his religion was an enormous source of comfort to him.
|
swood
Unregistered User
(9/28/04 12:10 pm)
|
Faith based Fairytales
The role of faith in fairytales is prevalent throughout the 19C, particularly in original tales written by specific authors. George McDonald has a number of faith based allegories in his tales. He was a minister, and had some very interesting, and unconventional ideas about faith.
I've never thought to look into Oscar Wilde's tales in this way, though the story of the Selfish Giant is definitley a Christ allegory.
Any comments?
Sarah
|
redtriskell
Registered User
(9/30/04 12:22 am)
|
Oscar Wilde
An interesting point about Oscar. But, you know, I've always wondered if his tales reflect a more cynical view. He's always seemed a more jaded man, and I think this world view shows in his work. In "The Happy Prince" for example, I feel his weariness of the hypocrisy of his times. Perhaps he started off with a greater faith than he ended up with? His work, in my opinion, shows a more complex relationship with god/church/faith than Andersen's. It seems that HCA believed in the ultimate redemption of the soul, no matter how flawed; and that Wilde, perhaps, wanted to believe, but doubt weighed too heavy on him. Too bad we can't call them back from wherever they are now and ask them... what a dinner party that would be.;)
|
bielie
Unregistered User
(10/5/04 3:58 pm)
|
Wilde
Wilde was gay, and as such despised and rejected by the religious establishment of his day. Of course the resulting conflicts in his life crystalised in his art. Yet his fairytales proclaim exactly the message that the church should have but failed to deliver to him: that of unconditional, self sacrificial love. I think the Happy Prince is an exellent allegory of what christianity should be like. The Nightingale and the Rose has the same theme, but here there is a difference: The students are completely unaware of, and also unworthy of the Nightingale's sacrifice. I do not think this is cynicism. The Nightingale's sacrifice is made not because the students are worthy, (and when they prove to be unworthy the sacrifice becomes pointless) but because of the character of the Nightingale.
I think Wilde understood the gospel better than those who would crucify him.
|
redtriskell
Registered User
(10/7/04 11:31 pm)
|
well, yes, but...
To bielie- I agree that Oscar's lifestyle certainly influenced his work; it also seems reasonable to me that the faith he wrote about and the faith he actually had could easily be two entirely different things. I also agree that the Nightengale's sacrifice was in the bird's nature and had nothing to do with the worthiness of the recipient of said sacrifice, but I see a certain bitterness lurking between the lines. The bitterness, perhaps, of a good and talented man who was poorly thought of in his own time. A recognition of the level of hypocrisy of his when and where. I mean, surely Oscar Wilde wasn't either the first or the last to scandalize the establishment. He just had the misfortune that his "scandalous" behavior happened to be especially ill thought of because he was gay. I guess I believe he knew he wasn't evil and that it grated on his witty nerves that people who did much worse weren't penalized at all for their indiscretions. Maybe the tales were his efforts to maintain a faith in something better. I suppose I just think of him as a little jaded, a little sad, a little angry...if he believed in God, he seems to me the kind of man who might ask that God, "Why did you make me this way if it's wrong?" His faith, whatever it may have been, couldn't have been so blind that he didn't see what went on around him. The difference, if you will, between the practice and the preaching. I imagine this disparity bothered him, made him bitter or cynical or just angry. In any case, I'm glad he wrote stories and plays; I like to think his work made at least a few people uncomfortable, even if they couldn't quite figure out why.
|
bielie
Unregistered User
(10/9/04 4:54 pm)
|
wilde
Redtriskell: Everything you say is obviously true. Some of his works are clearly a comment on the society he lived in. Apart from the obvious religious reading, the Nightingale is a metaphor of the misunderstood artist sacrificing himself for art (Love), in spite of being scorned by the students (Reason). (A bit like the song of Vincent van Gogh, Starry starry night: "They could not love you - but still your love was true...") The story of the firecracker speaks for itself. It is about people who regard themselves as important. (?religious leaders?) Wilde leaves no doubt as to what he thinks of such important people.
He had every reason to be discouraged and angry, but he also had the intelligence to turn his anger into comedy.
As for his faith: A man of Wilde's intelligence and wit could never have blind faith. Wether he really believed his fairytales or not, I cannot say. All I know is that true art comes from the heart, and has has the power to heal and redeem.
Have you seen the movie Amadeus? Mozart pleads with the emperor to save his career. He says, "I'm a vulgar man, Sire, but my music is not."
This thread started out about salvation. It is the nature of redemption to find those who need it most; where we, the moral authority, least expect it. I prefer to take the Prince and the Nightingale at face value, as a gift, and not to look the gift horse in the mouth.
|
Ken
McGuire
Registered User
(10/11/04 12:49 pm)
|
Salvation
Whoa! While I realize that fairy tales have the power to give speech to trees and magic power to imaginary, I don't think that they animate redemption to the extent that it seeks out those who need it. Redemption is a condition or process. Fairy tales (sometimes, may, have the power to. . .) illustrate the process of redemption through the interaction of the characters and plot with the reader (storyteller, listener). Even in a story such as A Christmas Carol, where the ghosts seek out old Scrooge and bring an opportunity for redemption (I'm sure that there are examples in more traditional fairy tales as well, but that just came to mind), the redemption is not the active agent. It is Marley who intercedes in Scrooge's behalf. In the Wilde story, the Prince really works out his own redemption, even though he had to have a helper to accomplish it.
|
Mary
Unregistered User
(10/12/04 12:50 am)
|
Hans Christian Andersen
I think it's a mistake to think of Andersen's tales as less complex than Wilde's. They're written in a more sentimental style than Wilde's, yes, but taken as a whole, rather than looking at a single tale, HCA's body of work displays a range of attitude toward Christian themes, so much so that some were considered a little shocking in his day.
HCA's tales, like Wilde's, can be seen as reflecting his life, such as The Little Mermaid, who, in seeking life and love among humankind, found that she was still and always an outsider - just like Andersen, a poor, under-educated boy who tried (and often failed, in his youth) to gain acceptance in upper class society. This theme appears again in other tales, like the Little Matchgirl pressing her nose to the window glass, gazing at the rich, warm, and happy family inside.
Andersen too was gay, falling in love with men throughout the course of his life. His unhappiness in these loves (most of which, but not all, were unrequited) was a constant sadness for him. And sadness is a dominant flavor in his stories.
There's a fascinating biography of HCA (THE LIFE OF A STORYTELLER) by Jackie Wullschlager.
Also a good web page about him and his life over on the Endicott
site: www.endicott-studio.com/jMA03Summer/hans.html
The page quotes bigrapher Jackie Wullschlager on the subject of Andersen's sexual orientation: ""Without the enormous repression of his time, he could have declared himself to be a homosexual. Many people have asked me what would have become of him today. He might have taken anti-depressant and been happier, but then he would not have written his fairy tales."
|
Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(10/12/04 2:11 am)
|
Re: Hans Christian Andersen
Off-topic: doesn't sound like the biographer understands how anti-depressants work, or the difference between sadness and depression!
|
janeyolen
Registered User
(10/12/04 4:40 am)
|
Re: Hans Christian Andersen
And we don't seem to understand the difference between a gay man and a bisexual. Andersen also fell in love (ie pined for, did nothing) with ballerinas, Jenny Lind, and his best friend's sister. As well as his best friend.
He was actually asexual (not sure if this was from choice!) but sure did a lot of pining. He was also a major fan boy, being attracted to performers and well-known authors to the point of silliness.
Jane
|
Veronica Schanoes
Registered User
(10/12/04 5:23 pm)
|
Re: Hans Christian Andersen
Hey, for that matter, Wilde himself fell in and out of love with women!
|
Mary
Unregistered User
(10/13/04 12:40 am)
|
HCA
Well, there's dissention among Andersen scholars as to whether he was gay or bisexual. Some believe that his extragant public crushes on women were a cover for his actual feelings since his deepest, most long-lasting attachments, as least as far as anyone can tell from remaining letters and diaries, were to men. Other scholars say, nonsense, he was bisexual. Since we can't pry into Andersen's mind, we'll never know for sure.
Since most of his loves were unrequited, Jane's perhaps right to call him asexual -- accept at the end of his life, when he had a requited love affair with a handsome young male ballet dancer.
|
redtriskell
Registered User
(10/13/04 10:37 pm)
|
sexuality and redemption
To Bielie: I think we must think about the same thing of Mr. Wilde. I love his work for its wicked skewering of society, and for its romantic themes. I think Oscar carried both a sharp mind and a generous heart. I'm equally sure that these things made his life difficult and his work extraordinary. And, yes, I have seen Amadeus. I loved the illustration of the point you mentioned- that the art and the artist are two entities. One can be a stunning artist, while also being a regular (or even crummy) human being.
To Ken: If it's true that fairy tales can illustrate the process of redemption- through self-evaluation or with the help of an outside agent- then why isn't that the same as seeking out those who need to be redeemed? I should probably note here that I believe we humans find strange guideposts along the path, and that I don't really put much stock in coincidence. If somebody who needs redemption happens to pick up a story illustrating the process and is able to take away something valuable from the experience... isn't that the same thing you were talking about?
|
Bielie
Unregistered User
(10/14/04 1:15 pm)
|
Redemption
Thanks Redtriskell
Ken: I think you may have missed my point slightly, Redtriskell sensed it.
In the Nightingale and the Rose, most people would agree that the Nightingale is the christ figure: Not the one redeemed, but the one buying redemption (for the students) with his own life.
|
|
