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Author
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Comment
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bielie
Unregistered User
(1/6/04 8:58 pm)
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Little mermaid and Feminism
Hi.
I just read this on the SLL page on the Little Mermaid
"She cast one more lingering, half-fainting glance at the prince,
and then threw herself from the ship into the sea, and thought her
body was dissolving into foam: Marina Warner criticizes the tale
as a negative message about feminine love and duty. The tale shows
that as a woman being voluntarily silenced, "cutting out your
tongue is still not enough. To be saved, more is required: self-obliteration,
dissolution" (Warner 1994, 398) ."
I do not think this is a feministic issue at all. Remember that Andersen was a passionate Christian, and that according to his world view ALL love required sacrifice of the self, not just love by a woman for a man.
Jesus said: There is no greater love than this, that somebody should sacrifice his life for his friend. And Paul says that christians should be like Jesus who emptied himself of himself (self obliteration,dissolution), became a slave, even unto death, so that we could be saved.
For Andersen this was simply the purest form of love imaginable, and a recurrent theme in his work. To turn it into a feministic issue is an insult to him.
Oscar Wilde used the same theme in stories like the Happy Prince (who was NOT female).
Happy Fairytaling
Bielie
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Helen
Registered User
(1/7/04 12:49 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Dear Bielie:
I can't help feeling a bit ambivalent about this ... not in terms of Warner's position on "The Little Mermaid" alone, but in terms of the relevance and validity of *all* criticism. Do I believe that "the author is dead" and that the text must be taken wholly and completely on its own terms? No, not entirely ... I think that authorial intention can be a very significant factor in how one reads a text; to ignore it completely means anarchy, and, worse, theoretical anachronism. However, we also have to take into account not only what the author was trying to do, but how s/he achieved it, and whether s/he did it successfully.
In her discussion of "The Little Mermaid," Warner is contextualizing HCA as a member of a long-standing tradition of silencing women. The chapter itself is titled "The Silence of the Daughters," and she also discusses the mute sister of "The Twelve Brothers," Lavinia from _Titus Andronicus_, and Angela Carter's heroine Ada from _The Magic Toyshop_. I don't think that she's necessarily concerned with the *fact* of HCA's sacrifice of the titular character ... more with the form that it takes (i.e., the very sexual bifurcation of her tail, resembling as it does the onset of a young woman's menses, being coupled with the loss of her ability to express herself, the fact that her "sacrifice," such as it is, is not so much an act of commission as it is of omission in that she chooses only to observe the original boundaries of her foolishly optimistic bargain with the Sea Witch, etc.).
I think that you're *very* right in your observation that this was obviously a deep conviction on HCA's part (after all, we don't even need to go as far as Wilde ... we can just flip to "The Tin Soldier") but that doesn't necessarily remove the manner in which the message is conveyed from potential criticism. If anything, I'd say that it places it under a more focused spotlight, of race, of class, of, yes, gender, as well as that of religion. But then again, I'm planning to do this for a living ... my biases may be getting the better of me. Thanks for bringing up a topic with such fascinating implications!
Best,
Helen
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AlisonPegg
Registered User
(1/7/04 2:02 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Excellent argument, Helen, very well expressed. Couldn't agree more. And a splendid topic for discussion.
Alison
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(1/7/04 2:22 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Very well put, Helen.
While I place a heavy burden on the author's background and supposed intent when analyzing a tale, it cannot be used as the only means of interpretation and criticism. I agree that HCA's intent was to beautifully tell a story of Christian self-sacrifice and immortality. The issue is that the tale has taken on a life of its own. Its interpretation also depends on what the reader's experience and background brings to the story. Many of the tale's readers are not Christian or, even if they are, they may have a somewhat different view of Christian theology. What do these readers see in the text when they read it? Criticism exists in part to expand a reader's understanding, to provide different viewpoints, and to encourage creative thinking--at least in my ideal of criticism. This is also the beauty of literature. What is important and life-changing to me in say, Austen's Pride and Prejudice, may have not affected or even occurred to any other reader. Who is right and who is wrong in such a case? That question is too absolute. The final meaning has to dwell within you, but hopefully you can also find acceptance for other people's interpretations in the meantime. I myself find different meanings at different readings and times in my life. The quest for romantic love, for example, is not as important to me as it was a few years ago before I married. Now I find myself looking for messages as to what makes a strong and happy marriage. It's not my only approach to my reading, but it is one of many factors that affect my personal reaction, usually quite subconsciously since a strong marriage is one of my primary lifetime goals. The most worrisome conceit of criticism is the lack of the personal pronoun. Sure, it's implied, but it should be overt in my humble opinion. I appreciate reading the more established critics because I know their biases, their personal philosophies, and even their weaknesses.
SurLaLune's mission is to provide information for increased understanding, for creativity, and yes, even for debate. I have read a lot of criticism in my research for the site, especially of late as I have pushed to finish annotating all of the tales on the site. Believe me, I find a lot of criticism outlandish, outrageous, and simply way off base. Bettelheim is a perfect example, but even some of his ideas occasionally spark moments of enlightenment for me. I weed through much of the criticism, looking for theories that may resonate with the most readers. These are the ones I share, providing a mishmash of theories, thoughts, and trivia. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but then again, I tend not to include the thoughts that don't appear to have a basis in reality or at least the text in front of me. It would be impossible to do this work without leaving my personal fingerprint on it. Those who know me best would certainly see my personality hidden all over the site; it's unavoidable so I just embrace it and move forward.
On another note, 24 of the 27 tales on SurLaLune are now annotated. Some are better than others. I personally had a lot of fun with The Twelve Dancing Princesses this past week. If you haven't visited over there for a while, you'll probably find quite a bit of new material.
Heidi
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/7/04 6:16 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Great answers, Helen and Heidi. Thank you. And Heidi, thanks for adding "The Little Mermaid" to SLL. If anyone ever stumbles across a discussion of the story as portrayed in Sade's song and video "No Ordinary Love," I'd be happy to be pointed at it.
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Helen
Registered User
(1/8/04 9:18 am)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
*pleasantly abashed*
Heidi, you make a very important point when you say that "The most worrisome conceit of criticism is the lack of the personal pronoun. Sure, it's implied, but it should be overt in my humble opinion." I remember the first time when this really bothered me ... I was reading _S/Z_, Roland Barthes' annotation of _Sarrazine_. The work, in its entirety, is hugely influenced by the contes des fees ... a fact which Barthes was either unaware of, or chose to ignore. Instead, he chose to rely almost entirely upon a Freudian backing - not invalid, in and of itself, but almost cetainly problematic in light of historical context. It was fun writing a paper to take it apart and show where he'd gone wrong ... but how many readers accept his criticism at face value, knowing and caring little about fairy tales, but reading _S/Z_ as a seminal work of poststructuralism? What an introduction to French fabulism ...
Conversely, another disturbing element, for me, is the question of where critical inclusionism ends. I wrote my MA thesis on Donkeyskin; the journals that I sent it out to liked it, generally, but I've received suggestions that I ought, necessarily, to reference Freudian/Lacanian/Jungian interpretations. Well and good for an overview, or in a truly massive work encompassing all aspects of a tale's history, but in a focused historiographical analysis? I think that it makes for a disjointed and tangential reading ... but I'm not editing those journals. Writers of Warner's (or Tatar's, or Zipes, or, on the other side of the critical coin, Dundes) caliber don't have to worry about that: they present their own viewpoints, complete with implied "I," but for the fledgeling critic, it brings these issues squarely to the forefront.
I think that there's a difficult balance to maintain between the overweening arrogance that potentially tells readers that there is only one true way to read a text, and an inherently confusing melange of opinions that fails to deliver a conclusion that justifies the authors efforts, the printers costs, and the readers time. Now, if only that balance wasn't affected by outside factors ...
Nalo, I have tantalizing fragments of memory concerning Sade's "No Ordinary Love," but my recalcitrant computer refuses to assist me in finding a clip of it online (and I have a funny feeling that I may be blending the aural memory with the visual images from P.J. Harvey's "Little Fish, Big Fish"). Could you maybe refresh an ammnesiac's fading memories?
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Jess
Unregistered User
(1/8/04 9:20 am)
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Another interpretation
That same sentence of the Little Mermaid always bothered me as a child. I suppose it has a number of reasons, but as a non-Christian, I was always struck that she never died - went through a death, but morphed immediately predeath into a ghostlike soul. Btw, what of her sisters that also turned to foam? Does Warner discuss them? They, of course, ARE silenced through their deaths. After my first reading of the Little Mermaid, I always stopped reading the story after she threw herself on the sea; it seemed a more appropriate ending to me - even as a child.
Interestingly, the Little Matchgirl also morphs (but more completely) before death. I wonder if part of HCA's thoughts were not in silencing women as much as trying to gloss over the pain of death itself - a kind of, "you don't die, but go to heaven".
HCA seems so intent on focusing on the soul. I have read many of his stories as a means to an end in this regard. But he also seems very aware of the importance of communication, especially in women. For a contrast to Little Mermaid, read his version of the The Seven Swans. It is only AFTER Eliza can talk that she is able to save herself, and she avoids the burning at the stake (which makes one wonder if she would have also morphed had she not regained her speech).
Heidi, your comment about the reader's input in a story is so right. Every story, in my mind, is actually written by two people - the reader and the author. I suppose that is why I hate poorly ended books. It is as if the reader has been cheated from bringing his or her contribution to the ending to fruition.
Jess
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/8/04 12:29 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
At about age ten, I had a well-thumbed copy of HCA's stories. Used to read them over and over, and much appreciated them. Have another copy on my shelves now, for reference. The ending of the Little Mermaid kinda broke my girl's heart. She was a good person, and when I first read the story, I half expected that that would be enough to break the curse and allow her to go to heaven. That she suffered the eternal death (of the body, of the soul) seemed horribly unjust to me.
I was intrigued too as a child by the story of the man whose shadow takes on its own life. Can't quite put my finger on it, but it seemed somehow very different in tone and style from all the other stories. Not as sentimental (I mean 'sentimental' in the best way), but also quite surreal and hard-edged, in ways that the others aren't. Existential, perhaps?
As to the video for "No Ordinary Love;" there are two scenes, intercut: one of Sade running through the streets, looking distraught, wearing a very sexy bridal outfit and drinking vast amounts of water from a clear plastic water bottle that she carries with her. The other is underwater, and shows Sade in the same outfit, but this time she has a mermaid's tail (I almost wrote 'tale'). I imagine the little mermaid hoping that it's her the prince is going to marry, and getting dressed up to be ready, drinking water all the time because she's still essentially a water creature. Then discovering that he's chosen someone else and throwing herself onto the waves. In my head, the scenes of her in the water are either from before she had her tail converted to legs, or they're her wishfully imagining that she can return to that state. Some of the words of the song: "I gave you all the love I had, I gave you more than I could give/Gave you love/I gave you all that I had inside, and you took my love/You took my love/I keep crying, I keep dying for you/There's nothing like you and I, baby/This is no ordinary love, no ordinary love." (I always find myself wanting to correct that "you and I" to the grammatical "you and me;" who let that get sung like that? Grr.)
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ARTSFAN
Registered User
(1/8/04 10:03 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
I have a few mixed emotions on this topic. I always loved the story
of the Little Mermaid but I feel that it is a very sad story but
then again, Hans Christian Andersens tales weren't always the Happily
Ever After kind. I agree that the story kind of leaves you feeling
empty. It's funny how many people are so taken by the disney version
that they don't even know the original tale. As far as this arguement
about the story and feminism, I think to read so much into the stories
kind of takes the fantasy and imagination out of it. But on the
one side, we can always look at it from the little mermaid being
strong willed and brave. True the reason for the mermaid's drive
into becoming a human is over a prince but the idea is there. She
was brave enough to face the sea witch, and brave enough to have
her tongue cut out, and she wasn't afraid to die or to even leave
her "home". Isn't that what we do when we want something
bad no matter what that something is? We make sacrifices like leaving
home to go to college. We don't always do these things because we
want to but because we want to better ourselves for the future and
we don't always like our in-laws or relatives but we go to family
gatherings to better the relatives we like who are having the party
or the birthday or the wedding. Maybe I got a little off of the
subject but I think my point's here somewhere.
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Helen
Registered User
(1/9/04 2:30 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Well, I *definitely* agree that the core of the story, that of strength and self-sacrifice for the sake of a desired goal, is admirable; I don't even necessarily quibble with the fact that the all too literal sacrifice that the mermaid undertakes at the end of the story is honorable, both within the context of HCA's religious beliefs, and in light of the fact that this was not an unforseen consequence of her actions, but one that she foresaw ... and was willing to undertake. I do feel, though, that "As far as this arguement about the story and feminism, I think to read so much into the stories kind of takes the fantasy and imagination out of it" is perhaps a little bit ... essentialist? I don't mean this as an insult: taking stories on their merits, losing yourself in the author's position, suspending the instinctive disbelief of cooperative reality for a vision of a different perspective is one of the wonders of fiction of all sorts, not just fairy tales. But in a lot of ways, I think that criticism adds to that ... not by taking fantasy and imagination out of the story (or, hopefully, out of context, though that is what *bad* criticism does), but by adding further layers of perspective that enhance the story further. After all, for the literary purist, there's no obligation to ever pick up an alternate reading ... but for the would-be theorist, it's nice to have options, whether they take the form of the discussions on this board, or articles in journals.
Going back to Sade ... now I remember that video! Absolutely loved it - and the critical detail of the water is really intriguing! (I know what you mean about the line, though; slip-ups like that always jerk me out of the flow of the song/story. Maybe they felt that "You and me" went less euphoniously with "baby?" Who knows ...)
Edited by: Helen at: 1/9/04 2:31 pm
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jess63
Registered User
(1/9/04 10:37 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
I enjoy reading criticisms and critiques, as long as they don't feel too forced. What is interesting about this particular discussion is that when we look at something like HCA works, we can see the immediate and obvious influences in his life, i.e. his religious beliefs, his attempts at squaring or opposing trends in realism and existentialism (a nod to you Nalo) with his beliefs, but we can also see the subconcious cultural influences in his works. What is interesting is the critiques themselves are influenced by our culture as often noted on this board. That is in part what makes these stories so fascinating - they can be addressed in so many directions and can be read in so many ways.
Interestingly, I did NOT see the original HCA story as a story empowering, but, in contrast to much of Disney's recent works, I find that Disney's Little Mermaid is probably the most balanced of the recent heroines. Sure it wraps up the story in a squishy ending, but she is strong-willed and independent-minded if juvenile and aided by cutsey little animals. Then again maybe I like the Disney version more because I didn't like the original story that much. The HCA version, in contrast, seemed to indicate to me that even if a woman/girl went after her goals, stretched and sacrifice to obtain them, the most she could hope for was a shadowy existence and disappointment. I'll take my "White Cat" version of femininity as a role model any day.
Jess
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AlisonPegg
Registered User
(1/10/04 12:35 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Very interesting viewpoints and fascinating reading. One thing strikes me though. I'm surprised really that people are still so hung up on feminist issues and feminist angles in literature when it seems very obvious from where I stand that we're living in the post-feminist age of excessively strong women!!! Nothing wrong with that you might say, but there's no doubt it's produced a whole other set of issues. And they are surely the ones that are going to set the tone of this new century.
In the light of that, HCA, a writer a greatly admire for the beauty of his writing, does seem at this point in time in particular,to be a bit of a period piece. Dare I say it - almost laughable at times. Which is not to say that given time again, he'll rise beyond that, simply because of his sheer ability as a story teller.
Alison
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(1/10/04 1:25 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Because so many writers frequent this board, I've been waiting for one to chime in from a writer's (separate from a writer as reader) perspective. No one has yet, so I suppose I'll write what I've been thinking.
HCA, or any writer who publishes work, writes within a certain framework. However, once that work is published it enters a whole new world: a public one. This can be disconcerting, for me it was anyway. Some readers will love that work, both for intellectual and emotional reasons. Others won't. A whole range of people will feel and think so many diverse things about it, which I as a writer might or might not have intended. And some will make suppositions about me, both as a writer and, disconcertingly, as a person, because of what they read in my work. Publishing is a very public act.
The story belongs to me, but readers' subjective experiences do not. They're welcome to feel and think as they wish. If I disagree, I might state my disagreement but they're as entitled to their thoughts, and the expression of them, as I am to mine.
LauraMc
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Bielie
Unregistered User
(1/10/04 3:33 pm)
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Textual criticism and textual subversion
Hi all.
It is wonderful to read all your responses.
My two cent's worth:
In any text there are two people involved: The author and the reader. There are also two contexts involved: that of the author and that of the reader. With context I mean the person's worldview, culture, personality, education, ability etc. The text is the result of the author's message or story in the author's context. The reader's response to this text is the result of the text being translated into the reader's context. For this reason different readers (with different contexts) react emotionally different to the same text and interpret the same text differently.
A critic is a special kind of reader with his own context, who is also an author with his own readers. The critic has to consider the context of the author, the text, his own context and also the context of his readers.
Of course the critic can explore the author's context by using Freudian, or Jungian or any other tool available to analyse the author through his text, or use the same tools to analyse the reader ( himself, or others) through the reader's response to the text.
For textual criticism to be honest, I believe the critic should take all three these contexts into more or less equal consideration, and the text itself has to stay the main focus.
I believe that as soon as the context of the critic is too important and the context of the author is disregarded, criticism ceases to be about the text but becomes about the critic. Maybe he has an axe to grind on a specific topic, maybe he is a feminist (Sorry! she), or a pacifist, a vegeterian, an antisemite or whatever, who uses the text, not for its own sake, but as ammunition in his own war.
Without having read the work of the critic or the complete text that the quote was gleaned from (so I have to apologise in case I am completely of mark) this small snippet of criticism seemed to me as part of some sort of crusade, and not about the text at all, since the author's context seems to have been disregarded completely.
Textual criticism can easily become textual subversion.
Bielie
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bielie
Unregistered User
(1/10/04 4:00 pm)
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Disney's Mermaid
Hi again.
Marion Zimmer Bradley said, if my memory is to be trusted, that a good story involves a likable hero who faces seemingly unsurmountable problems and overcome them through his own efforts.
No cavalry allowed to save the day.
Andersen's Mermaid faces her final test: to murder in order to save her own life or to sacrifice herself in order to save her beloved. She overcomes this problem by making a choice and acting on it. She is a true hero.
My problem with Disney's Mermaid is that, at the climax of the story, she has to be saved by the cavalry. In this case her boyfriend.
(Yea, I know she defies her father, goes for a plastic fin job, leaves home and tries to seduce a seriously handsome bloke, but, according to your viewpoint, this may be merely foolish and not heroic at all.)
Although this may not be a fatal flaw in the plot, in my eyes it does cut the Mermaid down to the size of other passive non-heroines like Snow White and her house-keeping sisters.
I like the hero better.
Bielie
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Nalo
Registered User
(1/10/04 11:30 pm)
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Re: Disney's Mermaid
I know lots of feminist "he's." Thank heaven.
-nalo, feministic
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janeyolen
Registered User
(1/11/04 6:11 am)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
You can read HCA's "Little Mermaid" from the viewpoint of his particular century, his particular Christianity, his particular folkloric upbringing, his particular biography.
You can also read it through the lens of your own century, religious affiliation, knowledge of folklore and fakelore, and your own cultural and ethical and biographical baggage.
It's a different story each and every time.
Same thing with reading my stories or Nalo's or Terri's or Greg's or...
Jane
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jess63
Registered User
(1/11/04 11:40 am)
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Re: Little mermaid and Feminism
Which is why criticism is so fantastic to have access to...it give you that "other" lens to look at a story.
Breifly on Disney, I usually don't like what has been done in Disney stories, but with the Little Mermaid, I never really cared for the original. I also viewed the "calvary" part as bringing parity to the relationship between the Prince and the Mermaid. But it is not really the same story as the HCA one.
My lens
Jess
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swood
Unregistered User
(1/12/04 8:41 am)
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No Ordinary Love
On Sade:
"you and I" goes with "die," "cry," etc. in the previous lines.
On Little Mermaid:
Great discussion. I'm not sure I have anything else to add, except that as someone currently experiencing a broken heart and realizing how many pointless sacrifices I have made for my beloved, I see, and have seen before, the Little Mermaid as a cautionary tale. Her sacrifices are not only detrimental to her love and life, but to her whole community.
Strange, the actions she makes to gain an immortal soul, are the very ones that traditionally, have put the human's immortal soul at peril.
Sarah
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jess63
Registered User
(1/12/04 9:17 am)
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Re: No Ordinary Love
Sarah,
Interesting point, but remember that her love is still "pure" and that self-sacrificing for a higher good is a basic tenant of much of Christianity. HCA may also have been reacting to Darwin's Theory of Evolution (which was set out, I believe in the late 1830's around this same time?) trying to differentiate between man and near-men. Finally, recall that the Little Mermaid herself had no knowledge of her acquisition of a soul.
Jess
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swood
Unregistered User
(1/12/04 9:41 am)
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Darwin's Origin of the Species
The first paper on the subject was published in 1858, with the book The Origins of the Species following in 1859. Though there is clearly a lot in the story that discusses that the mer-people are without a soul, perhaps in the world view of the time, little more than animals.
Ew! Chalk another one up to feminists... female protagonist equals little more than noble pet.
Sarah
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