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Author
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Comment
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rosyelf
(6/25/04 11:48 am)
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Twins
I am the mother of twins(girl and boy) and the daughter of a twin(my father) and also the great-niece of twins. I'm aware of Romulus and Remus, Castor and Pollux, etc. in myths but what I'm really looking for now is twins in fairy tales.In theory,there must be loads, I suspect, but I haven't been able to find many. Amazon is offering a caribbean tale Twins and the Bird of Darkness, which I wil be ordering shortly, but that's about it. There are lots of fairly dire, very cliched children's stories about twins-you know, where the twins are identical, dress the same, think the same- but I don't want to read those. I'm interested for 2 reasons, 1)personal, autobiographical and 2)because I'm keen on writing a group of poems on the subject and I need to flesh out my ideas. There'll be poems about the twins in the family, and co-joined twins(Siamese) and also the VERY DARK side of the subject-Mengele's experiments. But I also need the myths and fairy tales. In advance, THANK YOU.
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InkGypsy
Unregistered User
(6/25/04 3:30 pm)
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Twins in Fairytales
I have always imagined Snow White and Rose Red as being twins, though it's not specifically stated (the texts I have also don't say they're NOT so one could argue the point...)
Rapunzel gives birth to twins and didn’t Sleeping Beauty (Talia) originally give birth to twins on waking up?
The Hare & the Porcupine (Grimm?) has twin sons.
Not that I personally think of Alice in Wonderland as fairytale but you may wish to reference Tweedledum and Tweedledee as well.
Copied from an earlier board on infertility in fairytales (submitted by Celestial on11/12/03): "In Prince Lindworm, which you will find in Kay Neilsen's East of the Sun, West of the Moon, a King & Queen are unable to have a child. One day, the Queen is crying and a witch, hearing her sobbing, offers her a solution. The witch instructs the Queen to "take a little drinking cup with two handles and put it bottom upwards in her garden. Then go and lift it up in the morning at sunrise and you will find two roses, one red and one white. Red for a boy, white for a girl. You must eat one rose only, not two." The Queen does as instructed, but the rose is so delicious that she eats the other one too ... and disaster comes to her. She has twins, one baby grows to be a fine man, but the other is a hideous man eating Lindworm."
Are you looking at “doubles” as well or just twins?
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(6/25/04 6:35 pm)
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Re: Twins in Fairytales
In the original Sleeping Beauty (that we know of), "Sun, Moon, and Talia," Talia is the sleeping beauty and Sun and Moon are her twin babies (one male, one female, I think). She gives birth to them while she is still sleeping (the prince has wandered by and raped her while she was sleeping--that's not how Basile puts it, but he's dead and I'm not) and is woken up when one of the babies sucks on her finger, sucking out the splinter/spindle thingy lodged in there. So the twin babies play a vital role. Or one of them does.
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(6/25/04 7:34 pm)
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Tatterhood
I'd also highly recommend "Tatterhood" (as opposed to "Tattercloak," which is a variant upon 510-B). "Tatterhood" features a queen desperately longing for a child, when one day she spies a tattermedalion child running about her courtyard. She calls to the chil, intending to school her, and is stopped short by the child's peculiar self-possession. "Do not scold me," the little girl says, "for my mother has the answer to your Heart's Desire." The queen scoffs, half-hopeful, half-disbelieving, and has the child's mother - an old, withered, and disreputable crone - brought to her, and the crone gifts her with a seed: she says, "When this seed blooms, it will possess two blossoms. Eat the first, and you will have the dearest, the most darling little girl that one could imagine ... but eat the other, and you'll have a sorrow to follow you for all your live-long years." The queen does as she says, but once she tastes the first flower, which is white as cream and sweet as honey, she is hard put-upon to resist it's wizen sibling. "What could the harm be? she asks ...
When, nine monthes later, she is delivered first of a hoyden cloaked in a tatterhood, riding a goat, and banging a wooden spoon, only shortly followed by a lovely, biddable sister, she knows.
"Tatterhood" is one of those lovely stories that I think that almost any child can identify with (who, at one time or another, hasn't been either Good, or Bad, or somewhere in between - see Midori's gorgeous posts on stories of the "Diamonds and Toads" tale-type for more details), but in some ways, it's also somewhat unsatisfying, in much the same way the B&B is, in its "happy" ending, as I like our "Tatterhood" just as she is. But I have strep-throat, and in all likelihood innumerable spelling errors, so I'm off to take more penicillen - back to ramble later.
Best,
Helen
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rosyelf
(6/26/04 1:43 am)
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twins
Thank you all for this great feedback-the wish list is growing again ! Of course, Rapunzel-I had forgotten about the twins element(which is so often expunged).
Veronica, I'm having trouble finding "sun, Moon and Talia"-could you let me know your source(s) ?
And one more thing: when I wrote of Mengele's experiments in my original posting, that should of course be Mengele's "experiments" .
Thank you again.
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rosyelf
(6/26/04 4:35 am)
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twins
I forgot to put this on the last posting-yes, I am interested in the Double, too.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(6/26/04 8:08 am)
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Re: twins
"Sun, Moon, and Talia" is in Giambattista Basile's 1634
collection of tales, The Pentamerone. I've returned the
volumes I had out to the library, so I can't tell you what translation,
volume, etc., though. The Pentamerone is huge, but I know
it's in there!
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Jessica
Unregistered User
(6/26/04 9:29 pm)
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Sun Moon & Talia
www.surlalunefairytales.c...talia.html
Ta-da
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CrCeres
Unregistered User
(6/27/04 8:37 pm)
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Twin duality
Twins show up in a number of stories as opposites. You mentioned a few mythological twins; have you heard of Nissyen and Evnissyen? They're a pair from the Welsh Mabinogian. Nissyen is wonderfully good, and Evnissyen is the total opposite. While Nissyen has a calming influence, Evnissyen causes mayhem and murder. This is one of the more extreme examples of dual-natured twins.
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Amal
Registered User
(6/27/04 8:58 pm)
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More twins
There's a middle-eastern story about twins that's known under various names... The twins are generally known as "Clever someone" and "Mistress of beauty," and when they're born, the mother's jealous sisters steal them and replace them with a puppy and kitten, or a puppy and a stone, or other less-than-welcome objects. The story then relates how the twins are saved by a fisherman and make their way back to their royal parents. Depending on the version, one twin may have more prominence than another, but their relationship is always a loving one.
I've come across the story in two collections so far, Jane Yolen's "Favorite Folktales from Around the World" and Jamal Sleem Nuweihed's "Abu Jmeel's Daughter and Other Stories: Arab Folk Tales from Palestine and Lebanon." In the first the story's called "The Promises of the Three Sisters" and in the second, "The Shrieking Nightingale." Both collections are excellent, though I find Yolen's to be a much smoother read. Then again, the preface to Nuweihed's collection is fascinating, and explains how the translation of the traditional stories written by an 86-year old woman was a labour of love done by her younger family members, and goes on to talk about the changing role of women in the middle-east and in the stories... Either way, I've done my plugging for the evening. ; )
Amal
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Amal
Registered User
(6/27/04 9:06 pm)
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Still more twins
Oh, and! There's this story about identical twin boys born under an olive tree, I think, who carry a fish as their standard, and one rides up to a castle where a wicked witch tries to get him to marry her, only to kill him when he refuses... But then, the second twin rides up the same way, looking for his brother, and the witch is so afraid he's a ghost come back to haunt her that she tells him how to bring his brother (and all the other young men she's killed) back to life. I can't remember now where I read it... Or rather, I can see the book and the illustrations, but I think it's since become a casualty of my recent move. Hmm, maybe it's time to toss out another general inquiry to the rest of the board... I've had such good luck with that!
knocking on wood,
Amal
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rosyelf
(6/28/04 2:17 am)
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Twins
CCeres, I didn't know about the Welsh twins but am now off to read the Mabinogion-which I've been intending to read for ages, anyway. Thanks for that. I'll be getting the version illustrated by Alan Lee, whose work I LOVE.
And thank you, Amal-I'll be getting Abu Jmeel's Daughter soon-sounds a fascinating read anyway, AND it has twins in it! Also, I'd be delighted if someone could pin down the identical- brothers- under- the- olive- tree tale which you have outlined so tantalizingly-can you picture the witch's face when the second brother puts in an appearance ? ! Wonderful stuff.
Thank you again, all.
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Nalo
Registered User
(6/28/04 12:40 pm)
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Re: Twins
Not exactly folklore, but two of the West African orishas are twin
children--Ibeji. Here's a website about them: www.cultural-expressions..../ibeji.htm
And another that also mentions them being syncretized with Catholic
twin saints Cosme and Damian: www.angelfire.com/fl3/IBEJI/
Which reminds me; I can't recall whether you mentioned Castor and
Pollux, twin sons of Leda and the swan, and sister to Helen whose
beauty was supposed to have caused the Trojan war: www.online-mythology.com/castor_pollux/
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aka
Greensleeves
(6/28/04 1:01 pm)
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Re: Twins
This isn't traditional, but the princesses in Robin McKinley's "The Door in the Hedge," (in the collection by the same name) are twins.
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(6/28/04 2:14 pm)
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Re: Twins
As long as you don't mind a detour into myth, Apollo and Artemis were twins, though as I recall, their most twin-ly action was jointly murdering the sons and daughters of Niobe, who had bragged that she had more children than their mother.
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rosyelf
(6/29/04 2:09 pm)
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twins
Apollo and Artemis- I'd forgotten about them . Thank you. And Nalo, those Ibeji are absolutely fascinating! And, though I had heard vaguely about twins being connected to monkeys( within the West African context) it was good to read more about that. Also, slightly off topic, did you know that Nigeria has the largest proportion of twins anywhere in the world-apparently it's to do, at least partly, with the large amount of yams in the traditional diet. Yams stimulate ovulation.Weird stuff. At the other end of the spectrum, twins are rarely born to people of Far Eastern origin-you can travel in China and Japan for many a long day and not find any. Caucasians are more likely than Far Eastern people to produce twins, and less likely than Afro-Caribbeans. There are, of course, other factors involved.
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Casey
Cothran
(6/29/04 9:59 pm)
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Mayans
The Mayan people had some myths about Hunahpu and Xbalanque, The Hero Twins. Here's a link!
www.uwec.edu/greider/hos/...popvuh.htm
Their ultimate fate:
"The twins had defeated the underworld gods again. They allowed themselves to be sacrificed. Through their supernatural powers, Hunahpu and Xbalanque were reborn. In this diminsion, they became part of the Maya "overworld" and became recognized as the sun and the moon."
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selkie
no
Registered User
(6/30/04 5:08 pm)
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Twin tales
Marie de France`12th century trouvere poem "La Fresne" is about an envious woman who indicates that the woman next door who has given birth to twin boys must have had two lovers. When she herself is delivered of twin girls she has to get rid of one of them. Her maid leaves the girls on a convents door step. Many years later she falls in love with a brave knight who is betrothed to, guess who; her unknown twin sister! The tale ends well for all parties ;-)
And while I`m at it; this is probably not exactly what you are after,
but "The Dung-beetle Flies in the Dusk" (1978) is among
the best children's books ever written (for older children, and
adults can`t put in down either). It`s written by the Swedish author
Maria Gripe, and I don`t want to spoil your reading experience by
giving away to much, but twin mythology plays an important part
in the sinister mystery the books young protagonists are given to
solve.
Selkie
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redtriskell
Registered User
(6/30/04 10:31 pm)
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folkloric twins
Since I have been close friends with two different sets of twins in my life, I couldn't resist this thread. The only twins I could think of (not already mentioned) are in a Mexican(?) folk story, theoretically passed down from the reign of the Aztecs. In the story, the high priestess is delivered of twins, one of each gender, but, sadly, the girl twin is stillborn. This terrible omen causes the people to shun the surviving boy, though they don't seem to blame the mother. As he grows, the boy tries everything to convince his people that he isn't evil and he didn't murder his twin in the womb. Eventually, he seeks his fortune elsewhere, becomes a great leader, and ends up warring against his previous homeland. He successfully invades and kills many of his tormentors. Rather Oeidipal, if one substitutes the homeland for the father. I am terribly sorry to say I can't seem to locate this tale in any of the collections I own; I think I read it in an anthology of Central and South American folktales and legends. I also think I'm forgetting something important in the story- a prophecy, another important figure, maybe something about the sister's spirit... anyway, if anyone else knows this story, I'd appreciate a reminder of the title.
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