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Author
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Comment
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Elindali
Registered User
(4/24/04 6:47 pm)
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things that shape fairy tales
Hi! I'm trying to define fairy tales (in broad terms) for my senior project, or at least to describe them as a genre. So far I've put together four characteristics that seem to shape fairy tales.
- They're told orally (I'm going to discuss literary fairy tales, but I'm regarding them as an offshoot of the oral stories, and so still influenced by the oral nature).
- They're highly symbolic; to paraphrase Eric Fromm, external events are used to describe internal events.
- They are (or were) usually told by women.
- They're -- I'm not sure how to phrase this. Considered low culture, maybe? Something about how myths in general are often elevated, while oral fairy tales were told by lower-class, often illiterate women. I'm not even sure how valid this is; I haven't finished my research.
Then I'd be arguing that being told orally instead of being written was an influence on the way events are described almost in summary, with little descriptions; the symbolism led to virtually no character development (and often no character names), and so forth.
I'd appreciate it if people would point out any flaws they see in these, or could direct me to sources that disagree. It's very easy to see only what interests me, and I know I'm biased toward the Grimms's fairy tales, since I've read more of them than any other collection. It's difficult (to say the least) to find fairy tales in equal proportions from every culture -- I might not even try to define fairy tales as a worldwide thing.
Thanks. :)
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/25/04 10:30 pm)
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Re: things that shape fairy tales
Well, while it's generally difficult to generalize about fairy tales, I think that I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with points one and three completely, and with point four at least partially, although if you're going to be discussing a very narrow part of the field, you could definitely make a convincing argument. The genre of fairy tales, specifically under that name, grew out of the French contes de fees (translated as "tales of the fairies"), which were, at least at first, told primarily by women, but by members of the aristocracy, and in printed form. They were later co-opted by male authors to a large extent (by Charles Perrault at first, almost unintentionally, as his tales were praised for their simplicity by the critics of those who'd felt that the women were rising above their station by imagining themselves authors, and then by individuals such as the Grimms, Afanasyev, and Jacobs). This is further complicated by the fact that the male authors acknowledged their debt to the folk tradition, typically, by attributing their sources to lower-class female tellers (the ubiquitous "nurse").
However, while this appears to be true in some cases, the Grimms, for instance, typically acquired their material second or third hand, from women, yes, but women of their own class who'd heard the tales themselves (or so they said) from those same "nurses." To muddy the waters further, many of the tales which they told appeared to have passed through a sort of second-stage orality, by being translated from the French literary tales, and traveling into simplified and Germanized versions.
There are some fantastic works out there which touch upon these
topics: referencing gender and class, I highly recommend Marina
Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde, and Elizabeth Wanning
Harries Twice Upon a Time. Concerning the Grimms, you might
want to take a look at Jack Zipes The Brothers Grimm. And
for a look at the general transmission of tales and the roots of
the genre that we now think of as the fairy tale, you might like
Nancy Canepa's From Court to Forest. Will post later if
I think of anything else ... hope this helps!
Best,
Helen
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redtriskell
Unregistered User
(4/28/04 11:31 pm)
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re:things that shape fairy tales
Well, I am not a professional, but I have read and collected fairy tales, myths, and urban legends for the last twenty years or so. I must confess that, for years, I didn't really know of the existence of anyone but the Grimms. Thank goodness I found other things. Anyway, on to the point...
In my opinion, one of the most relevant things a fairy tale supplies is a triumphant ending. Before you (or anyone else) clutch your head in frustration at this apparently simplistic view, consider the vital importance of this feature. Without a triumphant hero or heroine, there is no tale. In the older versions, success rested entirely on her ability to persevere, her wits, her kindness. Your comment about the internal/external landscape highlights this notion. The internal qualities and abilities create the external success. No matter how horrible the circumstances or atrocious the parents, the protagonist wins in the end.
The more of these stories I read, the more this is true. From the Girl with the Silver Hands in Africa to the tales about clever girls outsmarting Baba Yaga in Russia to the familiar Hansel and Gretel, these stories provide kids (and outcasts and adults and the lonely etc) with the vital idea that anyone, no matter how humble their beginnings, no matter how trying their lives can become greater. All it takes is wits, patience, kindness, and a willingness to face the road ahead.
Boy, I didn't really mean to drag out my soapbox and stand on it for so long...but fairy tales, and the map they made for me, saved my life in a way. They taught me that no evil goes unpunished and that the clever girl who is kind and perseveres always wins, even if it takes a lifetime of seemingly impossible tasks. I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, but I hope it is.
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RBrunea
Registered User
(4/29/04 3:47 am)
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things that shape fairy tales
Dear Red,
It certainly is helpful. Fairy tales are vessels of hope, and so, valuable beyond measure. I think at this point, that's what I search for most when I read a tale - the element of "What can this teach me? What hope can I carry away with me?" Thanks for your thoughts.
Blessings,
Rhonda
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Veronica
Schanoes
Registered User
(4/29/04 7:33 am)
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Re: things that shape fairy tales
I don't quite agree w/the triumphant ending quality. The Perrault Little Red Riding Hood ends w/her being gobbled up, and what about Hans Christian Andersen's "Little Match Girl," where the protagonist ends up freezing to death?
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Helen
J Pilinovsky
Registered User
(4/29/04 8:17 am)
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Re: things that shape fairy tales
Ditto. While a happy ending may be a part of the general understanding of the term (i.e., a "fairy tale ending"), there are quite a number of traditional fairy tales, both oral and literary, that end absolutely miserably. The ones that pop into my head - aside from Veronica's excellent examples - are the Russian fairy tales where characters make the mistake of being rude to Baba Yaga, and end up lunch. They're still teaching tales, but the form of the etiology takes a much harsher turn.
I definitely agree with RedTriskell that fairy tales demonstrate the triumph of the human spirit, but I'd maybe amend it to say that they don't guarantee it. Winning out in the end does require perseverence, and wit, and courage ... or, in some cases (such as "The Little Mermaid") a willingness to sacrifice. I suppose that it depends upon your definition of triumph ... Should it be deserved? And must it involve a triumph of *more* than spirit?
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Jess
Unregistered User
(4/29/04 8:28 am)
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Cautionary tales v. Truimphant Endings?
It seems these are the distinctions being made here. Some tales are cautionary, while others show that perserverance pays off. But I would add that for HCA, the ability of even the lowliest human to gain admittance to heaven was the reward itself, so in a sense it was triumph - or at least that is the way I have read The Little Match Girl and the Little Mermaid.
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(4/29/04 11:02 am)
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Re: Cautionary tales v. Truimphant Endings?
I would agree with Jess's assessment of HCA - while it's not what I feel, I think he did mean these endings as positive.
Other thoughts:
Is Hansel and Gretel really positive? I remember both loving and having a distinct discomfort with this tale as a child. Only as an adult could I articulate why: while the witch and stepmother/mother are dead, the children return to a father who not once but twice was willing to leave them in the woods to starve. Hardly happy, in my opinion.
Swan maiden, seal maiden, lake maiden tales have mixed endings. They are cautionary tales, I suppose, about not marrying those outside your kind. They're both bitter and sweet. The family is broken, the children don't have a mother, the woman is happy to finally return to her lands in some cases. Sometimes the children get a gift - healing knowledge for instance.
Just some thoughts.
LauraMc
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redtriskell
Unregistered User
(4/29/04 10:43 pm)
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define triumph
I love reading the diverse opinions presented in these discussions. I suppose that I consider HCA a wonderful writer, but not necessarily a fairy tale author. I have frequently thought he had a different agenda from the traditional tellers of fairy tales. I think the comment about heaven was interesting because, from that perspective, one could argue that the apparent tragic end wasn't really so sad after all. Admittance to heaven and triumph of the spirit was perhaps a greater boon to HCA's characters than mere "worldly" success.
As for the tales of the more cautionary aspect ie- Little Red Riding Hood- I suppose I categorize them differently in my head. They remind me very much of the modern urban legends because they contain those societal rules. You know, like how the Hook Man will come and get you if you go parking with your boyfriend. To put it another way, can't you hear somebody whispering to a friend that she shouldn't go traipsing through the woods because her mom's friend's cousin got eaten by a wolf in there? Same kind of thing for Baba Yaga- if you meet an old cranky lady, be polite because it might be Baba Yaga in disguise...More societal rules being transmitted to the next generation in terrifying (hence unforgettable) stories. Make no mistake, I believe all these stories belong together in a broad definition of "tales of wonder" and it's so easy to get tangled in hair-splitting. Where do the Arabian Night tales go? How about Native American stories? Greek myth? Where is the line between fairy tale, legend, myth, fantasy, folklore, and just plain story? Which is how this topic got going... defining something so richly diverse is an incredibly difficult task. I wanted to write a master's thesis (someday) on the evolution of the fairy tale into the modern horror story. I've been thinking about it for about 8 years now, and I still can't imagine where to begin. So good luck on your project- I hope you get an "A" for sheer nerve in tackling this subject.
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Colleen
Unregistered User
(4/30/04 10:12 am)
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Triumph? Happy Endings?
My first thoughts upon reading this thread were that there are several fairy tales that don't have a happy ending or a triumphant one; others have made the same point before I did. I think Hans Christian Anderson, in particular, didn't always use the happy ending route. I know it's been pointed out that The Match Girl and The Little Mermaid can be said to have, if not happy endings, at least triumphant ones. But what about The Steadfast Tin Soldier, where he was a laughingstock to all the other toys, was continually made fun of, never gained the affection of the one he loved, then died a horrible death? Or The Girl Who Trod on a Loaf? It's been ages since I've read it (I never liked that one - or the Tin Soldier, for that matter), but I seem to recall she came to a bad end and never escaped. That one's pretty obviously a teaching tale - but what about the Tin Soldier? It's just plain sad and miserable. What's it supposed to teach?
(Thanks, everyone, for the great discussions here.)
Colleen
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Nalo
Registered User
(4/30/04 6:35 pm)
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Re: Triumph? Happy Endings?
Can't find my HCA, and my memory's being flippant tonight. Didn't the little mermaid end up as foam on the waves, dead of the True Death and unable to enter heaven, because she hadn't been able to make the prince fall in love with her?
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Jess
Unregistered User
(4/30/04 7:46 pm)
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Little mermaid; legends and more
Nalo, she throws herself on the sea only to be brought to a limbo-like existence where she has to earn her soul after three hundred years which can be shortened by the smiles given to good children (or some such nonsense).
Regarding the definition of legends: I recently had a discussion with a member of the S'klallam tribe. She said that the were "not allowed" to call their "stories" "legends" because to their people the stories were true and "legends are not true." Her words, not mine. I found it an interesting distinction. I have always felt that legends always had a grain of truth in them. We actually then went on for some time over the various labels given tales. I wish you could have had the opportunity to hear the discussion as it was directly on point to your inquiry.
Jess
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Nalo
Registered User
(4/30/04 8:12 pm)
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Re: Little mermaid; legends and more
tks, Jess.
-nalo
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