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Author
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Comment
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swood
Registered User
(7/19/03 2:39 pm)
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Re: The Next Big Thing
WNYC has a show called The Next Big Thing. This week's will feature the following portion:
Native Pitch
When composer Robert Kapilow accepted a commission to write a piece honoring the 200th anniversary of the Lewis and Clark expedition, he knew he’d have to do a lot of research. But it didn’t occur to him that the project would require a reexamination of his understanding of American music, history and culture. Produced by Anya Grundmann.
www.nextbigthing.org/
Sarah
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Sharlit
Registered User
(7/19/03 3:38 pm)
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Also a consideration...
When choosing a culture or background for a character I think it is also important to consider *why that background is being used* as part of your decision as to whether or not you can treat it fairly. Myths, tales, folklore have a tendancy to be universal wherever they are culturally based, which is why we can safely adapt them to a more contemporary form for use in our art - universal themes, whatever the origin. [1]
Any artist uses their inspiration in a form that is relevant to them (touch wood). If I read the Book of Five Rings and decide that it has some major bearing on how I view the world, I will hope to work it into my art using it for what it is: an influence that means a lot to me, not an interesting cultural artifact I'm showcasing.
If, however, you are borrowing a particular culture to say something about it, you need to think long and hard about why this culture, what you really know about it and what you are saying about it. Why does your character represent that culture? What did you feel that culture could bring to the story that is unique? Are your presumptions about that culture accurate and fair?
I am particularily fond of stories rooted in non-european traditions
because it's a breath of fresh air, a change of beat. But nothing
in the world reads worse than popularised assumptions about any
tradition - and let me shoot myself in the foot by saying that the
"celtic" fantasy tends to be particularily guilty of this,
probably just because when so much is being produced, you end up
with a greater amount of crap.
On a related note, I recently read a new translation/adaptation of the _Ramayana_, and fell in love with it. Filmmaker brain that I am, I immediately wanted to drag the thing to the big screen and share such an amazing, sweeping story with everyone I could. Many adaptations have been brought to film already, of course, but none which seem to do it justice (I found a particularily alarming animated Japanese/Indian co-production). Finally I found that a studio was on the verge of making an enormous, Lord-of-the-Rings-esque version which was to be the most expensive Bollywood film ever produced - but complications largely owing to the fact that many factions of the Hindu community were VERY upset that anyone would cast a half-Muslim as Lord Rama sunk the project in it's entirety.
etc,
-charlotte
[1] Because frankly, I suspect a number of us are no more "celtic" than we are anything else; being white-ish and five generations removed from Scotland isn't exactly the same thing.
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Nav
Unregistered User
(7/22/03 7:48 pm)
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Thanks, Heidi!
Actually, it was only about another paragraph or two longer, but I will remember to do that from now on.
Interesting. I hope Susan Fletcher doesn't let someone else tell to her what to write about. This is exactly what I find frustrating about this subject and others; that a vocal minority (meaning agendists, not a race), thinks they can dictate to everyone what is appropriate and what is not. Last time I looked it is a free country, and the only measurement of what is valid should be the reading public.
Thanks again!
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Nav
Unregistered User
(7/22/03 8:30 pm)
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Also a consideration...
In the post-modern world, other people's cultures can and will affect other cultures. I read the Hagakure when I was about 20 and it had a profound effect on me, as have many other cultures works. You don't have to be Japanese (or whatever) in order to "get it." Many other cultures (especially the Japanese) adopt bits and pieces of western tradition into their own culture. No one ever criticized Kurosawa or other directors for using western material or subjects. I find some foreign directors have very interesting ways of viewing American culture - sometimes more interesting than our own.
Sorry to hear about your film. Sometimes there are rifts to huge to be mended, unfortunately, and racism isn't just native to America. To bad a Hindu actor could not be found. In China, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon didn't go over as well as it did here because the populace couldn't get over the accents of the actors playing characters from another era and geographical region of China. Seems silly to us, but imagine someone from the deep south playing U.S. Grant or Lincoln.
Sometimes cultures are meant to evolve. When you say Celtic in Ireland or Scotland, they think of themselves, not some distant culture, especially the noble utopian ideal many modern day Celtic culturalists tend to espouse. Today it seems like the notion of "Celt" is changing along with the reality of what they were/are. Social evolution based on revisionism is probably just as relative as the real thing, I suppose, even to the Celts themselves. Also, a modern day Scot is no more an ancient Celt than an American Scot five generations removed. So my own Irish predecessors are probably just as relative as those living in Ireland.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/23/03 1:25 pm)
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Celts
Nav wrote: "a modern day Scot is no more an ancient Celt than an American Scot five generations removed."
Having written two novels based on the Tain bo Cuailnge, I would have to agree with you completely. Bronze Age Celts were for all intents certifiable ("mad as pants")--as alien a peoples to us as most science fictional aliens are.
Greg
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(7/23/03 6:49 pm)
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Re: Celts
Greg-
You don't feel a visceral longing to be a beserker? I'm surprised!
Laura Mc
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Nav
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 10:35 pm)
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Ancient cultures....
...often differ from ours that they may as well be on another planet, it's true. People may not change a lot, but viewpoints and cultures change radically. That's one of the problems I have with reading modern fiction about ancient races. Unless the author can get inside the head of those people, he usually puts a modern slant on them. This wouldn't phase most readers because, like those masses who viewed paintings of King Arthur and Jesus dressed in 15th Century garb, they don't know any better.
In ancient society, religion, the tribe, and history were all as real as the other. The Illiad is a great example of this (as is the Bible), which is why I was disappointed to learn the Troy film is being made sans the Gods and Goddesses, at least in mention. Oh well. The Ancient Celts had a lot if interesting and admirable characteristics, but could also be complete loons, as Greg put it. Romanticising them is like romanticising Indians, or white settlers, or fairy tales. It's unrealistic at least and dangerous at worst.
What are the titles of your Tain novels? I'd be interested in checking them out. Sounds like you know your subject.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/24/03 10:47 am)
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Titles
Nav,
The books are TAIN and REMSCELA, in that order. They were Berkley paper back originals in the mid-80s (and Terri Windling was their editor back then) and were recollected as one volume under the title CRIMSON SPEAR: the Blood of Cu Chulainn in a limited edition (250 copies) from the now defunct Cascade Mtn. Publishing, and as an e-book from Time Warner's iPublish (also now defunct--can I kill publishers or what?). You may have to hunt a bit to find them.
As for getting inside their heads...my solution to the problem of portraying the alienness was to take the books outside the high fantasy stricture and throw in everything but the kitchen sink. So they are in some sense full of anachronism (kind of an anti-Morgan Llewellyn approach).
Greg
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Nav
Unregistered User
(7/24/03 8:52 pm)
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Titles
I think I recall the first book, "Tain." Did it have a
picture on the cover of the Tain sitting on horseback with an axe
in his hand - kind of a sword and sorcery type art piece? A friend
of mine was reading it and I remember being curious about it. Well,
you can't kill used bookstores or Amazon.com, so I will give those
a try. Thanks!
I think I get the idea - by adopting a non-traditional approach it makes it seem all the more different. Sometimes I read historical fiction that was based meticulously on known research of the time and is completely dated now. Not to mention all the things we think we know about those cultures that are probably completely wrong - thought processes being a major one. There is an author named Mathew Woodring Stover who wrote a two book history/fantasy series (so far) about a small band of mercenaries, one a female Pictish warrior, another a Greek Myrmidon who was at Troy, and an Egyptian wizard. They're called Iron Dawn and Jercho Moon. One of the more interesting takes I've read in a while. Stover despenses with the ornate vocabulary that usually plague most historical and fantasy fiction and pays more attention to their thoughts, ideas, and differences of views. I like it, anyway.
Now I'm even more curious about your books. Should have bought them back in the 80's!
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Gregor9
Registered User
(7/28/03 2:00 pm)
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TAIN
Nav,
The original cover was what I unaffectionately refer to as "Conan the Apache" when it should have had a Thomas Canty cover (time to take my medication now, down, bloodpressure, down).
You can probably turn up copies via Powell.com or Abebooks. The collected "Crimson Spear" title still shows up, I believe, on Amazon but I've no idea how or where they might be getting copies.
Greg
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NAV
Unregistered User
(7/28/03 6:21 pm)
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LOL!
Yeah, that sounds like the one I remember. I was being kind just in case you liked the cover. It actually prevented me from reading the book as it looked like yet another B- Conan rip off, and at the time I had read a gut full of those. Sorry about that! Canty would have looked better.
I might check out the collected version. Thanks again!
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Terri
Registered User
(8/5/03 2:31 am)
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writing about other cultures
This is a fascinating discussion, on questions I've thought about a lot over the years ... and have no easy answers too. But in general, I'm very much in agreement with Nalo, and thus won't repeat her points but simply enthusiastically endorse them.
Anansia asked at the beginning of this thread:
"For e.g. Terri in The Woodwife you appear to draw on native American mythology, but I don't know if that's your heritage. Do you get flak for it?"
I not only didn't get flak for it, a sizable percentage of my fan mail has come from Native American readers, particularly university students. I gather that Charles de Lint has a strong following among this group as well. But in general, yes, it can be quite controversial when Anglos depict Native American characters. (I was probably saved by the fact that the most outspoken critics of this don't tend to bother to look on the fantasy shelves.) My Tucson neighbor Barbara Kingsolver -- whose books, of course, are far more prominent than mine -- was the subject of many diatribes on this issue by a young Indian writer who felt she had no right to write about Indian characters. I personally found this a bizarre postion from a man who claims the right, himself, to write about Euro-American characters, African American characters, female characters, handicapped characters, and to play African American music (the blues), despite being none of these things himself. While agreeing with everything Nalo had to say about how one should approach writing about other groups of people with caution and respect, I would no more want to limit Anglo writers to Anglo characters and subjects (whatever the heck *that* would be) than I'd want to force non-Anglo writers to write *only* about their own ethnic backgrounds.
As North Americans, we live in a society of mixed races and mixed cultures, and that very mix is our heritage and cultural background. When writing about Tucson, in The Wood Wife, I wrote about Tucson as I personally experience it: as a mix of Native, Hispanic, and European immigrant cultures. As it happens, one of my grandmothers was Native American, but I wasn't raised in her culture and I don't think that having First Nations blood in me somehow gives me a magic password that allows me to create a character like Tomas, in The Wood Wife. Having close friends who are Tohono O'Odham and Yaqui was what enabled me to create Tomas, just as having close friends who are musicians enabled me to create Fox and Nigel even though I'm no musician myself. All the characters in the book came from my experiences in the world, not from my DNA.
Were we, as writers, confined to our ethnic blood group when writing, then I for one should not be allowed to use English or Celtic myths or culture in my work since (as far as I can tell) I haven't a speck of blood from the British Isles in my ancestry. Ellen Kushner wrote a great essay on this very subject for a little magazine called Brigit's Feast -- I'll see if she's posted it on line anywhere -- in which she addresses this subject as a writer of Eastern European Jewish background who has often used British folk tales and folk ballads in her work.
Of course, the whole issue is less simple than I'm making it sound, since we're also dealing with cultures -- like the various Native American tribal cultures -- that have experienced centuries of cultural suppression and appropriation by the dominant Euro-American culture, and thus non-Native writers (whether they be white, black, or green) should ideally tread cautiously in such areas in order to avoid perpetuating harmful cliches. As a woman and feminist living in what, to me, still seems very much a man's world, the problems associated with being marginalized in society are ones I do sympathize with. But to me, creative works that cross borders and allow more passage between various worlds and cultures (when done with skill, intelligence, and sensitivity) are good things, no matter what side of of the border one happens to be starting from. Just my opinion, of course.
Nalo, I was intrigued by your thoughts about the creation of your anthology. Ellen Datlow and I are considering an anthology grouped around some cultures that are not Western, and these are some of the very issues we've discussed -- amplified by the fact that neither of us is from one of these cultures. I think we'll end up doing it, as we'd like to go a little further afield than Western fairy tales....but it's a mine field, for sure.
Heidi, I was interested to hear what you had to say about Susan Fletcher. (I loved her book.) I know of another Y.A. novel which has yet to find a publisher (even though it's terrific, and even though the author has other fine, award-winning books to her credit) because it's a white author writing about black slavery in the south. Editors love the book but turn it down because the author's ethnicity makes it too controversial. Mind you, there's little in the book itself that's particularly controversial -- merely the author's skin color. A sad state of affairs indeed.
Edited by: Terri at: 9/2/03 11:21 pm
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Nav
Unregistered User
(8/5/03 7:06 pm)
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Good points
Some of what you said here is what was in my post that got lost. Mainly the part about what is our culture. I live in L.A., and even though there are many enclaves of different cultures, there is such a mix that many people I know associate themselves with more than one, or sometimes none of them. I know many hispanics and blacks into music who in no way identify with hip hop or ethnic music of any kind, and some who are into surf and skate culture more than "inner city" gang culture (although the two do oftimes intermix). I also know whites who are very much into hip hop and DJ. The cultural barriers are hard to even see anymore. As far back as high school I've known Asians who are so many generations removed from their ancestery that they don't even speak their former native language anymore. Even more, intermarriage is so common now that it's anyone's guess what culture someone identifies with. All to the better, in my mind. Maybe when everyone is everything people will stop caring so much about racial and cultural stereotypes. It's all a part of the melting pot that allows Americans to become virtually whatever they want to be, at least here in Southern California. This might not be as true in more rural areas, but in the age of the internet I'm sure those communities aren't as stratified as they used to be.
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Kerrie
Moderator
(8/8/03 2:05 pm)
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Religion and culture...
Another thought that this thread brings to mind is "how can someone of one religion write about a person of a different religion?"
(I bring this up because Readercon 15 had a panel on Sunday that
I wanted to attend called "Catholicism and Imaginative Literature":
www.readercon.org/R15-prog.html
Did anyone here attend that panel?)
Why should I write a story about someone who believes in Celtic gods and goddesses when I was brought up Roman Catholic? I think the interest and the passion need to be there, more so than what is forced upon an author by birth. For example, in college, I took World Religions. Because I was much more fascinated by Buddhism, Shintoism, Taoism, Islam, Hinduism, I learned and retained more about those religions. On the other hand, having been brought up Catholic, I thought I knew everything about those Christianity and Judaism (after all, Jesus was Jewish), and therefore could not grasp what was taught, and actually failed the exams on those religions (yes, I did worst on Christianity). My interest these days is in the more nature-based religions- if there is a nature spirit, god, or goddess, I'm all over it! Therefore, nature spirits sprinkle themselves throughout my stories and poems. Only a few times have I written anything related to my Catholic upbringing, and even then, they were sprinkled with myth or fairy tales.
I guess what I'm saying is I think it's Nature vs. Nurture- exposure levels, attract vs. repell, positive vs. negative experiences, etc.
Of course, I'm also a scientist, but science hardly ever seems to spring up in my writing- maybe I could write about a pixie particle...
Dandelion wishes,
Kerrie
Edited by: Kerrie at: 8/8/03 2:13 pm
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Heather
KT
Registered User
(8/18/03 12:00 pm)
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Writing about other cultures
The Children's Literature listserv also had a discussion on this topic recently, with interesting points made by Marge Bruchac, who was asked (by the book's editor) to review the sequel to a popular children's book prior to its publication. The first book had been criticized for inaccuracies in its depiction of Haudenosaunee life and culture. Marge's experience turned out to be so discouraging that she asked not to have her name associated with the project. Among other things, she notes:
"My take on the whole situation, therefore, is that any author who really wants to accurately represent Native views and history must be more than willing to put in the effort to overcome their own ethnocentrism and bias, and must enter into the project with an open mind, rather than simply
defending their turf and their supposed right to do whatever they please, regardless of who may be hurt by it. That being said, I don't feel that non-Native authors should be directly competing with Native authors to tell the same stories, since the literary market is so limited, and non-Natives have been having their way with our histories for so many generations. It is only fair to allow Native peoples a chance to address these issues on their own terms, in large part because the results of their writings will have very real impact on peoples' lives and basic respect in the world. "Children's stories" about
Indians can, and do, have lasting impact on relationships between adults."
For those who are interested, her letter describing the issues in detail can be found in the Child_Lit archives, second week of August, "Letter from Marge Bruchac" at
www.rci.rutgers.edu/~mjos...bout.html.
I've found this discussion thread very helpful!
Heather Tomlinson
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Nalo
Registered User
(8/22/03 5:44 pm)
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Re: Writing about other cultures
Nice. Heather, thanks for posting the excerpt from Marge Bruchach's letter. I'll go and look for the rest.
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Terri
Registered User
(8/31/03 1:31 am)
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Re: Writing about other cultures
Here's a brief piece that Ellen Kushner wrote for a small magazine called BRIGIT'S FEAST, in their issue devoted to "The Influence of Celtic Myth & Legend on Fantasy & SF" a few years ago. It pertains to this topic, and I'm posting it here with Ellen's permission.
Ellen Kushner
April, 1999
For a long time, one almost felt that Celtic myth and legend had *too much* of an influence on writers of fantasy! It was as though, in one little corner of literature, the sun had never set on the Celtic Twilight . . . lovely as far as it went, but it seemed a shame that modern American fantasists werei gnoring all of the other remarkable myth and magic traditions that exist in the world. I remember discussing this with other writers and editors in the 1980's. Theoretically, I was in favor of more multicultural fantasy; but in practice, it was hard to imagine how it would work. Fantasy is, paradoxically, both a radically innovative and a highly conservative tradition. The images and tropes of the Celtic world were so pervasive. Writers could rely on a sort of mythic shorthand: cloaks and swords, weirds and geases, bards and harps . . . they needed no translation, no explanation; the writer could launch right into the story and expect the audience to follow.
But fantasy literature does not exist in a vacuum. Just as popular culture, from fairy tales to folk-rock groups like Fairport Convention, Pentangle and Steeleye Span, had made us familiar with Celtic and British folkways, so, now, the popularity of world music - whether it be healing music from Morocco, women's singing from Bulgaria, or Cajun dances from the bayous of Lousiana - has aroused a curiosity in the world's traditions; a sense of magic and possibility, even of personal connection with places our families have come from, or places we have dreamed of . . . .
When I wrote my novel Thomas the Rhymer, I had spent years absorbed in British folkways. Since I was a teenage girl, I had read tales, collected ballads, even sung them. I loved them passionately, finding a deep mystery in their illogic and poesy that was very much like the magic of my favorite fairy tales and children's books. It makes me profoundly uncomfortable these days when I hear someone say, "I've got Celtic blood in me, so I really love Irish music/Scottish legends/(what have you) . . . ." I have no Celtic blood in me. There is nothing in my face or ancestry that is not Jewish. The myth of "blood rights" has caused a lot of trouble in this century.
I was born in America. The Christian-dominated Western culture I have grown up in comes from the British Isles, and I love the English language. If I do need a right to the Celtic material, it is from there that I stake my claim.
And so I would beg everyone who enjoys fantasy, myth and music these days not only to be respectful of the traditions that appeal to you, but also to consider the myth of the great human cauldron of dreams, from which we all dip our nourishment. It is not only blood that calls to us.
[Ellen, for those who don't know, is the author of Swords Point, Fall of the Kings, Thomas the Rhymer and other books, and the host of Sound & Spirit , a radio program that combines myth, storytelling and music around the world and
through the ages (www.wgbh.org/pri/spirit).]
Edited by: Terri at: 8/31/03 1:35 am
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janeyolen
Registered User
(9/1/03 12:21 am)
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Re: Writing about other cultures
Nicely done, Ellen. I hadn't seen that. I wrote a similar cry of the heart in Horn Book, called (I think) "Queen of Thieves." (Or perhaps "Princess of Thieves." I am in Scotland and so not near my data base and bookshelves.)
Jane
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Nalo
Registered User
(9/2/03 11:15 am)
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Re: Good points
The cultural borders (Nav said "barriers," but sometimes they are, sometimes they're not) are really easy to see if you happen to exist on the "wrong" side of them. One of the things that happens on the wrong side is the experience of having the dominant culture claim music and other art forms that your culture created, and claim that they are not and never were your creations; they are "universal." This is what happens with--for instance--jazz, hip hop, and urban Black American modes of dress. I have absolutely no problem with people from everywhere using those cultural markers. What makes me see red is when they try to deny the roots of them. It's interesting how often it's people from the dominant culture making that statement in order to justify claiming a particular cultural marker as their own. I dream of a world where people can share their cultures freely and invite other people in without the experience of having the genesis of those cultures denied them. And one more thing, which may be a uniquely non-American point of view; I am part African, part Scottish, part English, part Jewish, part Taino, part South Asian, and I am a Caribbean person with Canadian citizenship. I embody many cultures, have written stories based in cultures to which I do and do not belong, and I love places like Toronto that also embody many cultures; it's what makes the most sense to me. Yet I strongly mislike the concept of "melting pot," because to me it implies that everyone's wonderful, unique but also miscible variety is supposed to disappear into one common sludge. It's not a very appealing image to me at all. It's not a value that I intend to privilege or to work towards. I want diversity to remain diverse, and to be celebrated and enjoyed. I tend to use the concept of a stew, rather than a melting pot. In a stew, you can tell the carrots different from the potatoes different from the meat, but every flavour influences the flavour of every other; every mouthful is different. It's a whole made up of many parts. And it's tasty and looks and smells good, if you get it right. I like a concept of diversity that appeals to the senses!
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janeyolen
Registered User
(9/3/03 1:26 am)
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Re: Good points
And you taste really good, girl! <G>
I know exactly what you mean. My children have five bloods, my grandchildren each about ten bloods, and I want them to know and love and savor all of those. Tasty stews indeed.
Jane
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