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Author
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Comment
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/11/03 10:36 pm)
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thesis idea
Hi everyone! I am getting my Masters in Fine Arts in Writing for Children and Young Adults at Vermont College, and currently I am in my third semester. I am writing my critical thesis, and I would like to know what you think of the topic. It's called, ONCE UPON A CHARACTER: THE CREATION OF FRESH, BELIEVABLE HEROINES IN RETOLD FAIRY TALES. I am examining the techniques modern authors have used to fully develop characters from the more cardboard stereotypes in traditional fairy tales. I am focusing on middle grade and Y.A. retellings, and my advisor suggests looking at a few picture books as well. Do you think this is a good topic? I would appreciate any advice. Thank you all very much.
-Nicole
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Heather
KT
Registered User
(9/12/03 10:28 am)
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Re: thesis idea
Hi, Nicole--
It sounds like a paper I'd like to read! Do you have a booklist to work with already, or are you looking for suggestions?
Best--
Heather Tomlinson
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Terri
Registered User
(9/12/03 9:23 am)
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Re: thesis idea
Nicole, how are you defining "traditional fairy tales"? Do you include literary versions such as those written by the women salon writers of 17th century France? (Some of their characters are fairly quirky and surprising.) The 19th century literary fairy tales of Hans Christian Andersen? The 19th century fairy tales that were edited and revised by the Brothers Grimm? It's certainly an interesting topic to look at how writers today are using fairy tale material -- but it would help to know what precisely you're comparing this to. It seems to me that the degree to which the older characters were "stereotypical and cardboard" depends on which older versions you're reading, and when they were published, and by whom, and for what audience, etc. etc.
Can you give us some more information on what you're thinking of doing?
Edited by: Terri at: 9/12/03 9:24 am
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/12/03 11:25 pm)
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re: thesis idea
My first draft compared Levine's ELLA ENCHANTED with Perrault's CINDERELLA, McKinley's BEAUTY with Villeneuve's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST, and Napoli's ZEL with the Brother's Grimm RAPUNZEL. I used the versions from Joanna Cole's BEST-LOVED FOLKTALES OF THE WORLD.
Should I instead go to as close to the original source as possible? Or maybe use the Andrew Lang versions? I'm not sure what to do. I checked out from the library, BEAUTIES, BEASTS AND ENCHANTMENTS since I had read on this discussion board that the book had great translations of Perrault's CINDERELLA, OR THE GLASS SLIPPER and Villeneuve's BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.
I am defining the "traditional" fairy tales as the versions that are close to the original source of the story. Maybe this is too broad and won't work? I'm not sure.
Thank you for your help.
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/12/03 11:27 pm)
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Re: thesis idea
Hi Heather,
Is this the same Heather from California? If not, I apologize. If so, then it's good to hear from you!
-Nicole
Thousand Oaks, CA
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Terri
Registered User
(9/13/03 12:40 am)
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Re: re: thesis idea
These are all certainly valid versions to use for comparison. But I would think it would be useful to be familiar with the history of each tale you chose, and of earlier variants. Have you read some of the standard "history of fairy tales" books, such as Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde, or Maria Tatar's annotated fairy tales, or works by people like Jack Zipes or Lewis Seifert? Then there's Besty Hearne's book, Beauty and the Beast: Visions and Revisions of an Old Tale, and Cinderella: A Casebook by Alan Dundees. (I don't know of any books devoted to Rapunzel. Perhaps someone here does?)
Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious and you've done all this already. But you'd be suprised how many people write about fairy tales who don't know much about their history, so we've learned to ask on this board.
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/13/03 6:15 pm)
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Re: re: thesis idea
The texts I have right now are THE USES OF ENCHANTMENT by Bruno Bettelheim, Jane's TOUCH MAGIC, SPELLS AND ENCHANTMENTS by Jack Zipes, and THE TOLKEIN READER. I also requested many books at my local library and are still waiting for them. The texts you mentioned are among them. I even printed out the histories and bibliographies of each fairy tale I'm using from SurLaLune.
I guess I'm worried about which versions to use as my comparisons. Now I'm thinking I should use the version the authors of the modern retellings used, researched, or were inspired by. Robin McKinley said she read the Lang translation of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST growing up. Shouldn't I use that version, then?
Thanks for your advice!
-Nicole
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Don
Registered User
(9/13/03 9:35 pm)
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Re: re: thesis idea
If you're writing on the reshaping of heroines, then you need, especially for a master's essay, to take a look at the survey and bibliography of feminist fairy-tale scholarship in vol. 14 of Marvels & Tales (some of the references in note 31 are particularly relevant to your interest in children's/YA rewritings).
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/13/03 11:53 pm)
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Re: re: thesis idea
I will look into that. Thank you, Don. Is there a way I can get a copy of the article online without going through a school or library? My school doesn't have access to it and neither does my library. Or, should I order a copy of that past issue?
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Terri
Registered User
(9/13/03 10:19 pm)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Robin was also inspired, I recall, by the television movie version of Beauty and the Beast starring George C. Scott. She disliked it so much that she wrote hers in reaction! And then, of course, she revisited the tale again in Rose Daughter, and even to some extent in her new book, Sunshine.
Even if you know which versions the modern authors based their re-tellings on and use those versions for your comparison, I think it's still important to know the earlier versions of the tales -- to know their history, and to know what's central to each tale and what might have been changed by an editor like Andrew Lang.
If you're using Bettleheim's The Uses of Enchantment, be sure to take a look at all the criticism of Bettleheim's book that's come out in recent years. A lot of fairy tale scholars find a good deal of fault with Bettleheim, who made the mistake of not understanding the history of the tales he was writing about.
Here are another couple of books that would be useful, if you haven't got them on your list already, from Gail de Vos (who sometimes visits this board) and Anna E. Altman: New Tales for Old: Folktales as Literary Fictions for Young Adults; and Tales Now and Then: More Folktales as Literary Fictions for Young Adults. The first volume looks at modern re-tellings of Cinderella and Rapunzel, among other tales, and I *think* the second volume includes Beauty & the Beasts (though I don't have my copy of it here and can't say absolutely).
Edited by: Terri at: 9/13/03 10:34 pm
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Don
Registered User
(9/14/03 6:41 am)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Nicole,
If your library doesn't subscribe to the print version or the online version (via Project Muse), then you'd have to visit a library that does or order the article through interlibrary loan. You could also order the issue from Wayne State Univ. Press.
In 2004 the special issue with that article will be published by Wayne State Univ. Press in revised and expanded book format as Fairy Tales and Feminism: New Approaches, but you probably won't want to wait for that to appear.
(Incidentally, the Press is again offering a special, reduced subscription rate for students and seniors
wsupress.wayne.edu/journals/marvels.htm.)
Edited by: Don at: 9/14/03 6:44 am
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janeyolen
Registered User
(9/14/03 11:29 am)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Adding to Terri's last comment--I thought I remembered Robin liked the idea that the beast turned into...George C. Scott. She liked the idea he turned into someone who had a lived-in face, and not a pretty young untested boy. But the film that really influenced her telling, as I recall her saying, was Cocteau's "Belle et la Bette." But Terri has spent more time with Robin than I, so her memories are probably truer.
Jane
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Nicole
Schreiber
Registered User
(9/14/03 6:06 pm)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Thank you everyone for all of your advice, suggestions, and help.
I really appreciate it.
-Nicole
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Terri
Registered User
(9/15/03 12:36 am)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Jane, I don't know that my memory of this is necessarily more correct than yours, despite having lived with Robin. That was a long time ago, and my poor ol' memory just ain't what it used to be...<g> She may indeed have liked the Beast turning into Scott -- I don't remember that one way or the other -- but I know that overall she disliked the film, felt it had missed some of the essentials of the tale, and that this prompted her to write her own version as a kind of rebuttal. I believe she's talked about this in print somewhere or another, but I don't recall where.
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Helen
Registered User
(9/15/03 11:47 am)
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Re: re: thesis idea
Dear Nicole:
You might also want to take a look at Elizabeth Wanning Harries book _Twice Upon a Time: Women Writers and the History of the Fairy Tale_. She refers to a number of modern retellings - by Emman Donoghue, A.S. Byatt, Angela Carter, Joyce Carol Oates, and Margaret Atwood, to name only a few - although, unfortunately, she tends to stick more to established "literary" figures than to authors classified as genre writers.
I'll also vociferously second Terri's advice on knowing the development of the tale up to the version that's inspired the modern retelling: oftentimes, editorial decisions might remove a significant detail while leaving the bulk of the surrounding plot ... which goes on to subtly influence the subsequent retelling.
Also ... at the beginning of the discussion, you mention that you're comparing the stiff and stereotypical heroines of older versions to the vivacity and originality of the modern retellings. One interesting thing to keep in mind might be that Perrault and the Grimms, at least, adapted their tales from earlier versions that possessed heroines of somewhat greater chutzpah, to say the least: Villeneuve is *thought* to have been influenced by d'Aulnoy's "Mouton," though critics admit that the idea of the animal bridegroom is popular enough that she could have found inspiration in a number of sources (some of them possessing more individualized heroines). Perhaps - in contrast to the other thread discussing the idea that fairy tales have fallen out of fashion - you might consider the idea that the undifferentiated heroines of the past, say, two hundred years or so (with notable exceptions) were due to the proliferation of the form as a popular commodity, and that more recently (let's say, the past ... fifty years or so? It's difficult to generalize, knowing that I'm slighting so many authors from the late 19th and early 20th centuries ...) authors have returned to the more individuated forms, revitalizing the diversity of the field? Just a thought ...
Best,
Helen
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(9/22/03 10:15 pm)
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Calvino's heroines
For a reality check on traditional heroines before the Victorian popularizations, see Calvino's ITALIAN FOLKTALES. He was the Italian Grimm, working from tales collected by scholars in the late 1800s, but he worked in the 1950s. He was a serious scholar and no prude. Many of his heroines are bouncy, assertive....
As to retellings for children, you might take a look at mine at
www.rosemarylake.com.
R.L.
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(9/23/03 11:09 am)
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Re: Calvino's heroines
If you tried to click on Rosemary's link and got to a
"404 file not found", it is because of the extra "dot"
at the end of "com.".
Try this:
rosemarylake.com
or
www.rosemarylake.com
(what's a dot? Not a lot!
Just a little pencil spot...)
Rym Rytr
Edited by: RymRytr1 at: 9/23/03 11:11 am
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