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Author
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Comment
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gormghlaith
Registered User
(8/11/03 5:00 am)
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His Dark Materials
I just read a past post concerning criticism of Harry potter, and while I Do Not want to bring that all up again, something in the Stephen King review puzzled me- in his opinion the Potter books were 'much better' then the His Dark Materials trilogy. Maybe because of longevity? What does anyone else think? I'm looking forward to Lyra's Oxford in the fall, myself.
Edited by: gormghlaith at: 8/11/03 5:12 pm
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chirons
daughter
Registered User
(8/11/03 4:37 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
I wouldn't say the Potter books are "much, much better," on any level except perhaps accessibility for younger readers, but I don't know what King has in mind. I've found his comments insightful enough about other things, and although I'm not his greatest fan for content, I think he's quite a good writer.
I am new to this forum. Can you point me to the discussion you're referring to, so I can review King's comments and reply to you? I have strong positive feelings for the trilogy myself, but I don't think it's got the immediate mass appeal of the Potter books. Nor does it need it.
Edited by: chirons daughter at: 8/11/03 4:56 pm
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gormghlaith
Registered User
(8/11/03 5:11 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
Hi! I'm quite new here myself. The discussion was here:
pub25.ezboard.com/fsurlal...1385.topic
and the King review was posted by Nalo.
Oh, and I put one to many "much"s in my post- he actually just said much once. I do agree on accessibility and its value, such as it is. And I thought King's review was very fair. He threw out the comment on the trilogy at the very end, without much explanation, and I found it so curious that I wondered how others felt about the books. Anyway, welcome!
Edited by: gormghlaith at: 8/12/03 5:02 am
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chirons
daughter
Registered User
(8/11/03 5:42 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
OK, thanks, I'm glad to have the chance to see the King review. Sweet, isn't it? and I think it's probably sincere too, though King is no fool, and if I'm not being too cynical, he probably realizes he wouldn't get any more change back than Harold Bloom did for knocking Rowling (except for the adverbs, and he handled that sweetly too).
You're right, he didn't really say much. I can guess, because I greatly prefer Pullman myself, but I don't think His Dark Materials will ever pull that kind of an audience for sheer volume. I don't think King is referring to the quality of the writing or the crafting of the story, which are just better than Rowling in general (I do very much like the Harry Potter books, but I don't think it's useful to compare them). Perhaps he means they don't serve the same wide identification function, or invite the child to get in and LIVE it in the same way. Or at least, not such an overwhelming number and range of children. I'm not sure I agree, but I have the feeling that's what he was getting at.
It will be interesting to see what happens to the trilogy in the film adaptation. In the current social climate, all hell should break loose beautifully for two things: the cosmology, and the terrible, unconventional vision of parenting and attachment. I have to say Lyra's personality is a lot closer to the probable results of that kind of disruption than Harry's is, and that's why I love her resilience more. It seems to ring truer.
Edited by: chirons daughter at: 8/11/03 5:48 pm
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Nav
Unregistered User
(8/11/03 9:48 pm)
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Interesting
King seems to be stating his own view, not that of mainstream publishing, which he is a banner child of. I always thought he was more intelligent than that. Personally, I like Harry Potter, but His Dark Materials is one of the best young adult fantasy series I've read since Dianne Wynne Jones Dalemark quartet, and calling it "young adult" is a hedgy thing because even more than Potter it transends the genre. Is any book for kids because the protagonist is a kid? I tend to think it is a book for anyone who likes well written, complex tales. Lastly, it is WAY better than Harry Potter. Comparing them is almost apples and oranges. Harry Potter, while enjoyable fare, is in no way as deep as His Dark Materials, which works on many levels Rowling hasn't even thought of. Harry Potter, to me, is like Roald Dahl meets The Hardy Boys. Pullman has the ability to be another Jones, or even Lewis or Tolkein. Heady claim, but that's how good His Dark Materials is.
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Terri
Registered User
(8/12/03 2:37 am)
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Pullman
I totally agree with Nav here. I like Harry Potter, it's lots of fun, I adore the fact that it's got kids reading again, but the Pullman books are on another level altogether. They may never be as popular because they're far more challenging, but the writing is simply brilliant. Not entirely flawless (nor is Tolkien for that matter), but brilliant nonetheless. I think of the Harry Potter series as great fiction, the Pullman trilogy as great literature. Just my personal opinion, of course, but there you go.
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janeyolen
Registered User
(8/12/03 4:18 am)
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Depends...
Not just brilliant writing, as Terri says, but audacious concept and daring carry-through.
One of those books I wish I had written and realize I never could.
Jane
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Helen
Registered User
(8/12/03 10:32 am)
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Re: Depends...
Personally speaking, I have to say that I'm a bit ambivalent about _His Dark Materials_. I agree with Pullman's admirers: his writing is absolutely brilliant, and the world that he's created is enthralling. However .... I have mixed feelings concerning the didacticism of the books. I don't know if anyone other than myself remembers this, but two or three years ago there was a huge brouhaha (the A.S. Byatt review of the Potter books is rather reminiscent of it, actually, in terms of the debates that it's inspired) over Pullman's criticism of C.S. Lewis for the moralistic, didactic nature of the Narnia chronicles. I don't remember Pullman's exact phrasing, but the gist of his statement was roughly that he disapproved of authors who used their literature as soapboxes for their personal world-views. This was before the publication of "The Amber Spyglass," and (despite my love for Aslan, the White Witch, and Eustace Clarence Scrubb, who almost deserved it), I found myself agreeing with him. After all, as a child, though I hadn't quite understood all of the allegorical parallels - I'd completely missed the allusion of the dragon - I'd known that there was a MESSAGE to be had: and that message struck me as being almost superfluous to the *story* that had so enchanted me, particularly in the unappealing conclusion to _The Last Battle_. Year's passed; I grew up; finally, I had in my hot little hands my very own copy of the last volume of _His Dark Materials_. And, magically enough, I was transported to being eight years old again. Not in terms of my suspension of disbelief, or my wonder, but in terms of my disappointment. It was the same old problem all over again ... I was being wacked with the message-stick. Pullman's message is one that I don't disagree with, but I can't help feeling that the allegory of Lyra as Eve is a bit heavy-handed, almost to the point of interfering with the story. No matter how beautifully phrased it is, it's still ... off, at least to me. Funnily enough, it's the exact same problem that I have with Rowling's work: I enjoy the books (and do freely admit that Pullman is a cut above in terms of language, structure, originality, etc.) but the one point that I'd criticize before all others is the didacticism. I *know* that her intentions are good, and that, hopefully, somewhere along the line she'll mend this world of apartheid that she's created. But until she does (one hopes successfully) I'll still have a niggling doubt at the back of my mind, weaker in her case because she *does* still have two books in which to redeem herself. It's not, necessarily, that I disapprove of YA fiction serving a dual, teaching purpose ... it's just that I tend to rate it by how subtly it's integrated with an ideally beautifully told story. I suppose that I'd disagree with King (and heartily agree that comparing the two *is* apples and oranges), with the qualification that, well, while Pullman wins more points in just about every category - intricacy, eloquence, creativity - I'll never feel entirely comfortable with his conclusion. Rowling's still has time to rectify the situation ...
Wistfully,
Helen
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gormghlaith
Registered User
(8/12/03 3:43 pm)
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To Helen
Helen- a while after I read the Dark Materials books, I read the
Narnia books- we have them all in one volume at my library. Despite
the vague awareness that the books contained a lot of christian
symbolism, I read them as pure fantasy-classics!- and was enjoying
(as well as disliking...) bits here and there till I hit a terrible
snag- Susan, who is left out of the 'rapture' in the Last Battle.
It kicked me right out of the story (although I hadn't been enjoying
the lionskin donkey or ape or whichever thing anyway). I was so
horrified that I went on the Internet to read about it, and came
across quotes of Pullman's and articles mentioning his disgust for
the Narnia series. The next time I reread the Dark Materials books,
I felt as if the Amber Spyglass were more, I don't know, purposeful,
then I had first noticed. I love the books still and wholeheartedly,
but...I don't know, that knowledge had entered my little garden
of readerly delights. As for Potter, that whole House Elf thing,
with almost all of the characters save Hermione saying, look, see,
they really Like it this way, and the elves beating themselves elsewise...the
message is so mixed I'm not sure, either, if two books will bring
a resolution...cheers to uncomfortable reading...
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Nav
Unregistered User
(8/12/03 10:29 pm)
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Lewis and Pullman
Pullman has said the things about the Narnia series many of us have thought but didn't have the cojones to state publically. No mistake, I LOVE the Narnia books and always will, and don't really have a problem with the Christian theme, as overbearing as it is at times. It was his background for the stories, and just as relavent as pagan, buddhist, or Islamic ones. Lewis was a rather traditional, inerrency of scripture kinda guy, and so he worked that old fashioned world view into his books. Susan's not being included in the rapture is only one of the things that annoyed the hell out of me. Lewis's pecks and jibes at progressive education was another one that really irritated me. Obviously he was also a man who believed in the word of the press as well as the Bible, and knew extremely little about education, other than "readin', writin', and arthemtic," which is suprising considering the imagination he possessed. At the time, I guess he wasn't aware of Summerhill's outstanding success rate. Pullman stated in an interview that he found Clive's disapproving views of anything remotely progressive hardest of all to take, and I agree 100%.
Ultimately, to me, it is alright to espouse your philosophical ideas in print, as long as you don't wallop the audience over the head with them. Lewis did this, and Pullman used a little more subtlety. IMHO, whether it is music, literature, film, or art, subtelty is what it's all about, and not so easily accomplished as a lecture.
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Anansia
Registered User
(8/13/03 1:43 am)
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Re: Lewis and Pullman
I loved the Narnia books as child too the whole christian thing went right over my head at the time. Hated the last book too. Boring! Now I'm hesitant to read them again or promote them to my son because the whole Tahskent thing is surely Islam bashing - at least as far as I can recall. Or maybe its a combo of Islam, the Arab world, and imagined paganism? Whatever, it's spoiled for me now. (BTW what or who is the dragon meant to symbolise? I missed the reference, whatever it was).
I agree about the ambiguity of Hermione and the house-elf problem in HP & it does read very like CS Lewis's treatment of vegetarians & progressive schooling. I guess it's defending the class system. Bash the progressives while pretending you don't have an agenda in that area cos the status quo is just fine thanks. I don't find Pullman so didactic - I think he's more prepared to canvass ambiguities than JKR, who is good on some areas but IMHO totally cops out on others - like HP's 'relationship' with Cho, or all those working class magical bus conductors, Tea ladies, etc - I'll bet they didn't go to Hogwarts!
I too am puzzled by King's comments but am also a tad surprised he considers HDM to be HPs main competitor. I guess he has access to publishing stats that I don't. I think of HDM as being for an older age group - the Artemis Fowl series would be more appealing to HP readers. Ah - I'm forgetting everyone else who reads it, aren't I? I mean younger HP readers. Don't think my nine year old's ready for HDM just yet. HP probably crosses more age boundaries. Pullman's concepts are more compelling.
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mrspb
Unregistered User
(8/14/03 5:00 pm)
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Potter in prespective
I have only recently decided I should read the Harry Potter books. I read one and two last year and only got around to the other 3 within the past few months. I was not driven to read any of them just mildly curious and somewhat entertained. I do understand some of the very real criticism directed at Rowling's writing, especially from phenomenal writers who have made the genres of fantasy and science fiction sparkle with amazing literary jewels. The first time I heard about Harry Potter and Hogswart I could not help but think of LeGuin's Earthsea books. Then I remember reading between the lines in her introduction to Tales from Earthsea and understood clearly how she felt. I cannot help but think her feelings led her to reopen Earthsea's doors. I think my discontent with the Harry Potter books stems from the same kind of dismay. But I too felt slighted when I heard readers extol Harry Potter with words like, "never before" and claim JK Rowling has create something new and amazing. I have even read similar words in comments from librarians who should know better.
I have always loved to read. I haven't always been a Fantasy fan but eased into it from being a reader of Science Fiction. I love a great story. Especially one that is wonderfully written and speaks to my heart and soul. I've never felt that with Harry. I absolutely loved Pullman's His Dark Materials Trilogy and waited with great impatience for two very long years between book two and three. But what is there about Harry that makes people wait in line for hours for the latest edition? Sadly, I really believe it is very good marketing and manipulation. As a librarian, I am ecstatic at almost any book that makes kids read. I even stocked Goosebumps in my middle school library when they were all the rage. But I have really found the excessive marketing of Harry Potter extremely uncomfortable. I honestly feel like the wonder of books is lost in the hype of marketing hysteria.
Denise
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Nav
Unregistered User
(8/14/03 9:03 pm)
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Marketing of HP
I understand and agree to a certain extent, but the thing that a
lot of people are forgetting is that Harry Potter wasn't really
hyped all that much until book three, and book four saw the over-the-top
campaign. The kids marketed it themselves - to each other, via word
of mouth and online. The film company tried to shut down all their
little fansites before the release of the first movie (in their
usual grab for power, much like the music industry), and they fought
back, and won. The film company realized that it was facing a boycott
of the subject's fan base, and backed down. So while the hype is
there, it wasn't there in the beginning. I picked up HP when the
second book came out, after hearing from some friends that it was
a good read. At the time, aside from my friends, I had heard nothing
about it in the media at all. And R.L. "assembly line"
Stine is yet another reason why I am happy HP became as popular
as it did!
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janeyolen
Registered User
(8/16/03 2:36 am)
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My take
I beg to differ--Harry Potter was word of mouth Book 1 in Britain, but it was hyped by Scholastic in America FROM Book 1. As it became more and more and mammothly successful, its hyping grew (as much to sell merchandise as the books) until it used up all the book oxygen in the air and other authors suffered.
Scholastic put my WIZARD'S HALL paperback out of print just as they brought out book 1. Interesting?
Jane
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dawnchan
Registered User
(8/16/03 1:59 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
I'm glad to find other people as upset as I am about the HP hype. I just finished the first two volumes of the Chrestomanci series by Diana Wynne Jones and thought it infinitely better and absorbing than HP, though the Potter series is great fun.
I'm also relatively new here and would like to see links to previous discussions of contemporary children's writers.
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(8/16/03 4:27 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
Dawnchan -
Welcome. There is an archives for this board. You could search for other discussions of contemporary children's literature. I know we've discussed Pullman's HDM before, as well as others. Contemporary children's writers also post here. Many discussions we've had include references to children's literature interspersed with references to other kinds of literature. A lot of us are cross-readers and cross-discussers: we read and discuss regardless of what genre label or age-level label is put on a piece of work. So, you might want to do some browsing, too.
Again, welcome.
LauraMc
Edited by: Laura McCaffrey at: 8/16/03 4:28 pm
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dawnchan
Registered User
(8/16/03 9:24 pm)
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Re: His Dark Materials
Thanks Laura,
I'll be browsing the boards the next few days, if I can spare any time before returning to campus.
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Nav
Unregistered User
(8/17/03 9:13 am)
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That may be
but as a part of the general public, I was never aware of any hype until later. Scholastic is insular, but it is true they have a big influence on children, as they are peddled throughout our nations classrooms. So that may well have brought about the popularity amongst kids. I'm speaking from the standpoint of seeing stacks of books and promotional gimmicks and merchandise in bookstores, and throngs of kids on the news waiting in line for the next book to come out. When I picked up the first two Harry Potter books, they were over in the young adult fantasy section, squirrled away with other titles. And this was at a major Barnes and Noble store in L.A. I would venture that, as has been stated here before, that HP has helped the young adult fanasty market, as I have seen many other books come out (both good and bad) and authors re-published, like D.W. Jones, some of who's books I never thought would see the light of day again. Obviously you are more well aware of what's happening there than I am since it is your trade and life blood, and know full well if your own titles are being pushed aside by HP books, so if you say it I don't doubt it. It would be interesting to read exactly what kind of impact HP has had on the market. I wonder if there are any good objective studies on it? I only know the handful of popular articles I have read. Someone should do a publishing study of the phenomena.
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(8/19/03 7:54 pm)
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a praise to all their houses....
Bravo to King, and to All of the Above [Authors]!
As a longtime Narnia fan, I personally will reread HDM more often than Hogwarts. And Pullman's prose is grand of course, solid and smelling of clean fresh earth and the Prayer Book of 1662, the sort of style that only gets better with rereading.
But when King put Harry with Alice and Dorothy, I saw his point. Luke Skywalker might get there too, but not Will and Lyra. I think the more wild and simple the world (like Wonderland, Oz, and Hogwarts), the simpler a character is needed. The world and characters of HDM are a bit too complex for that company, more YA than ageless....
Rosemary
www.rosemarylake.com
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Jess
Unregistered User
(8/19/03 10:07 pm)
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Marketing of Fantasy
My soon to be nine-year old son when asked what he wanted for his birthday said "books, fantasy books". Fully expecting him to refer to HP, he explained that it was the "Redwall" series he preferred. My understanding is that PBS has done a program based on this series of books - another great marketer of books. He has not, to my knowledge seen the programs, but his friends have. He does enjoy the books, however.
I discouraged him from reading LOTR earlier this summer until he is a bit older. I think, knowing him and the books, that he will get more out of them later. Again, kids in his class have caught on to the hype and read these books when, perhaps, they are not quite ready. At least the kids are reading good books.
He has read all kinds of fantasy, including Lewis, Yolen, and yes, even Rowling. It sure beats "Captain Underpants".
Kids will read all kinds of things, only some of which is marketed
to them. It sometimes amazes me. My older boy will read the horrid
"Captain Underpants" and then switch to Kipling or even
the Calvino Italian Tales without skipping a beat! I prefer that
my boys read good literature. The important thing is making sure
it is available for them to read. That means strategic placement
of good books (like in our car). Parents and schools can "secretly"
market good books as well. One of the best ways is for the kids
to see their parents reading them. The curiosity just kills them.
Jess
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alina
Unregistered User
(8/20/03 12:32 am)
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Captain Underpants
Jess,
I am a children's library assistant and have to ask, have you read Captain Underpants? I've had many parents object to the series based solely on the title and tell their children that they absolutely cannot check them out. I've read them and think that they are hilarious, witty, and perfect for young boys to build a love of reading. Often Captain Underpants fans move on to Roald Dahl, Bruce Coville, Louis Sachar, and others. I actually detest the Junie B. Jones series myself, I despise the poor use of grammar in the writing, but kids love them and it gets them reading. I personally think that too many parents try to get their kids to skip these fun, easy reads and make them read what they consider "good literature" upon which many of them choke. I know that you let your son read the Captain Underpants books obviously, regardless of your dislike (*applause*--hooray for parents like you!), and I'm not aiming this at you, but I think that more parents need to realize that for children, reading books like Captain Underpants (and even Junie B. Jones) is an important stepping-stone in creating lifelong readers.
Best,
Alina
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