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Author
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Comment
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/20/03 4:02:29 am)
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the symbolism of the pomegranate and Jewish tradition.
Hi,
At the moment I'm tracing links between Bluebeard, Eve in the Garden of Eden and Persephone. Much of the work linking the heroine of Bluebeard with Eve has already been done by Marina Warner, but it's this further connection that is currently interesting me.
The myth of Persephone shares certain features with Bluebeard (Aarne Thompson motifs R11.1 "Princess is abducted by ogre", T721.5 "Subterranean Castle" for example). But the Pomegranate may be an interesting connection, as the theme of a fruit that is an object of temptation obviously links the story with the apple of knowledge.
While researching, I came across this intriguing nugget: "Jewish
tradition says that human body includes 613 nerves and pomegranate
fruit 613 seeds as Torah includes 613 commandments. To eat a pomegranate
is to eat human flesh... " from hannibal.hannotations.com/hades.html
If this is true, I can add to the list of "motifs in common", "C227. Tabu: Eating human flesh".
So, does anyone know if the above information is true? Is eating a pomegranate really linked with cannibalism in Jewish tradition?
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/20/03 4:04:37 am)
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doh!
Just found this in the archive, silly me
www.surlalunefairytales.c...nates.html
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/20/03 4:09:59 am)
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me again
Nope, it doesn't seem my question is answered in any of the previous threads, and though the link between pomegranates and fecundity is touched on, there's no mention of possible cannibalism.
So, I guess the question's still open. Any experts on Jewish tradition/ folklore here?
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(2/23/03 6:10:42 pm)
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maybe not canabalism per se
Oh my, this topic fascinates me as well. Not so much Bluebeard, but now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense. Maybe we can compare notes ^_~
Unfortunatly, I'm no expert of Jewish folklore, but there is definetely a flesh connection to pomegranates; eating the fruit often seems like ravishing it. The rape of Persephone, the fall of Eve... Furthermore, if you subscribe to old school psychoanalysis, the act of sex is but a hop skip and a jump away from the act of consumption.
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/24/03 4:33:08 am)
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oh good
I'm afraid my subscription to old school psychoanalysis ran out some time ago, and i couldn't be bothered to renew it, but yes, I imagine that is a fairly sound reading. I'll check that with my object-relations Kleinian buddy though.
That said, I'm glad that someone else sees a connection. I'll have to have a look in the library and see if there are any tomes on fruit symbolism/ judaism.
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Kerrie
Moderator
(2/24/03 8:58:14 am)
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Other threads....
You may also want to check these threads out:
Red
Queen, White Queen: Lilith vs Eve & All for an Apple
Bluebeard/Fitcher's
Bird
That's all I can find at the moment. I'll look for more later, after
I go try to buy some pretty dancing shoes. :)
Sugarplum dreams,
Kerrie
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ZMethos
Registered User
(2/26/03 2:59:16 pm)
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Re: the symbolism of the pomegranate and Jewish tradition.
"For the Lord G-d shall lead you into the good land, a land of flowing water... The land of wheat and barley, the vine and fig and pomegranate, a land of the olive tree and honey"
Dvarim 8, 7-8
These plants have a special status since they have come to symbolize Eretz Yisrael and the Jewish people. Our sages told many parables about the fruits of these trees. Any one of these particular fruits, in the eyes of the sages, was a symbol of various human characteristics and cause for the glorification of the Jewish people, the land of Israel or the Torah.
Pomegranate
"As the slice of the pomegranate, so is your forehead". Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish used to say, "Among your people, even the most ordinary people are filled full by the commandments, as a pomegranate. "The pomegranate trees came into blossom", these are the small children who study Torah and sit in rows before their teachers, like the seeds of a pomegranate."
Shir HaShirim Rabba 6, 17
___________
The pomegranate fruit (rimon in Hebrew), with its abundance of juicy
seeds has been regarded as a symbol of fertility for thousands of
years. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible and is one of the
seven species with which the Land of Israel is blessed (Deuteronomy
8:8) . It was also a favorite motif of Jewish art in ancient times:
the capitals of two columns in the facade of the Temple in Jerusalem
were decorated with pomegranates (1 Kings 7:42) and so were the
robes of the High Priest. (Exodus 28: 33-34)
____________
At Rosh Hashana, a special prayer is recited over a pomegranate.
"May it be Your will O Lord our God and the God of Our Fathers, that our good deeds will increase like the seeds of the pomegranate."
___________
Anyway, while there's no specific reference to cannibalism here, there are a couple of reasons why one might draw that conclusion. Generally, the bloody color of the pomegranate and its juice links it to the eating of flesh. Also, because in Jewish tradition the pomegranate is linked to the Jewish people themselves, a cannibalistic image might also be conjured.
One might also conjecture that because pomegranates are linked to fertility--the bearing of children--that to eat them might mean inadvertantly eating your children. (It's the same reason Jewish people don't eat meat and dairy together.)
~M. Pepper
Edited by: ZMethos at: 2/26/03 3:02:38 pm
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Kevin Smith
Unregistered User
(2/27/03 2:11:07 am)
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thanks
Thankyou, that information is very helpful.
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Angel
Feather
Registered User
(3/5/03 11:21:39 am)
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Islam
Pomegranates also figure in Islamic art and I'm sure mythology. Doesn't Inanna travel to the underworld? Also the city of Granada in Spain, which was the final holdout of the Muslim Moors until kicked out in 1492, means pomegranate in Spanish. In Robert Graves "The White Goddess" he makes some connections between the pomegranate and Jewish traditions.
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(3/5/03 3:18:24 pm)
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Re: Islam
Yes, Inanna does travel to the underworld. There are a lot of parallels b/w her narrative and Persephone's. I'm not sure how she relates to Islam, though.
Another tangent w/Bluebeard.... I was thinking about the mark left on the protagonist's forehead. Reminded me of the mark of Cain, son of Eve.
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(3/6/03 1:08:25 am)
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the mark on the forehead
An interesting thought, but I don't think the mark on the forehead
occurs in Perrault. The Andrew Lang version www.surlalunefairytales.c...index.html
certainly doesn't mention it, and I don't recall it in any of the
Grimm versions, Bluebeard or Fitcher's Bird.
If anyone can correct me, I'd be much obliged, but I got the impression that the mark on the forehead was a literary touch added by Angela Carter in "The Bloody Chamber" which links the protagonist to Eve, and also stresses the orientalism of the Bluebeard figure himself.
I've not read every collected version however, so I can't be sure.
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(3/6/03 7:22:38 am)
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Re: the mark on the forehead
You could be right there... I'm most familiar w/Carter's version. I think she also links Bluebeard's ancestry to the Marquise de Sade - not terribly far off the mark when it comes to Satan/snake of Eden, and probably not a connection anyone else has taken up.... it does sound like something she worked in herself.
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