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Author
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Comment
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allysonrosen
Registered User
(2/26/03 1:47:58 pm)
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Comics and Fairy Tales
Okay, folks...
My latest mania has been comics. I have found that they appeal so wonderfully to my love of mythology, storytelling, and my admiration for visual storytelling.
My fascination with comics has also introduced me to some great books, such as "The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay" by Michael Chabon, which explores the idea of a 20th century superhero as an extension of the Golem in Jewish folklore.
Then of course, there is the Neil Gaiman universe...I'm reading the Sandman right now, which weaves folklore, history, and mythology into a complex and rich universe in which his chracters live...and it was all based on a not-so-successful DC Comic that was written in the mid 20th century...
I'm also reading a comic by Bill Winningham called "Fables" in which basically every fairy tale chracter you can imagine has been exiled from their homeland by a mysterious "Nemesis" and live in modern-day New York under a de-facto fairy tale government (Snow White is the Deputy Mayor...Old King Cole is in charge...Bigby Wolf is the resident P.I...you get the point...)
I'd love to start a discussion of the parallels between fairy tales/folklore and modern day comics...what superheores do you think are extensions of folk-heroes and heroines?
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Kevin
Smith
Registered User
(2/27/03 2:17:24 am)
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superheroes ..
".what superheores do you think are extensions of folk-heroes and heroines?"
I generally think of superheroes in terms of fairy tale categories, rather than specific "characters". That's mainly because very few fairy tales have memorable characters (hence the lack of naming), but also because I think that comicbooks have always tied in to wish-fulfilment in the same way that fairy tales do.
That said, I'm not sure that comicbooks have quite the same utopian potential as the fairy tale. The way that fairy tales are structured generally allows the listener/reader to "telescope" themselves into the text, to imagine theirselves as the questing hero(ine), whereas the reader can't *be* superman, nor will getting bit by a radioactive spider get results.
Those are just my initial reactions though, I'm sure someone who knows more about the graphic novel will come along and prove me wrong . ..
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Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(2/27/03 7:33:27 am)
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Hmmm...
I've never thought in terms of specific fairy tale characters = specific super-heroes . The super-hero tale is generaly too caught up in male adolecent power fantasies to rest easily within the subtle confines of the fairy tale world. I know that some creators have used certain FT characters as a basis for their creations. Walt Simonson's take on Iron John for the Marvel Comics version of Thor comes to mind. But usually these creators have only taken distant visual memories of various characters and projected them into entirely new universes bereft of their mythic or fairy tale resonances. For instance there certainly remains little of the crafty intelligence of the Loki from Nordic mythology in his modern day Marvel representation. All that is left is a rather silly muscle bound WWF-like costumed character that arbitrarily still bears the same name.
There have been many direct adaptations of mythological/fairy tale themes and characters into the comic/graphic novel medium, some of them successful and some not. FABELS, SANDMAN, P. Craig Russell's THE RING, Frank Cammuso's MAX HAMM,Alan Moore's PROMETHEA, FAIRY TALE DETECTIVE, Kyle Baker's KING DAVID, Jeff Smith's BONE and Linda Medley's CASTLE WAITING are certainly some of the more successful ones. They are successful because each one of those creators has a good working knowledge of myth and of fairy tale structure. They have gone back and studied the sources and not based their work on second, third and fourth hand accounts, perhaps written by someone who has themselves noticed that 'fantasy' was selling well and that they too could put someone in armour and have them battle to the death with the evil magician who will take whatever generic world their story takes place on into eternal darkness.
Keep looking, there IS a lot of excellent material out there.
Best,
Charles
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Gregor9
Registered User
(2/27/03 9:09:32 am)
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Re: Hmmm...
A lot of excellent material out there, including something called ROSE, illustrated by this Charles Vess guy.
Greg
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allysonrosen
Registered User
(2/27/03 12:02:05 pm)
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Re: Hmmm...
"The super-hero tale is generaly too caught up in male adolecent power fantasies to rest easily within the subtle confines of the fairy tale world."
Alright...lets examine the superhero tale motifs, which basically parallel Campbell's model of the Hero Journey: (keeping in mind that these are characters that are re-invented decade after decade by numerous writers and artists, ostensibly to carry on a publisher's legacy of merchandising and sales...but the re-invention of the chracters has lead to a "mythologization" of the particularly resonant and popular characters...Batman...Superman...Spidey...)
1) Hero is an outsider [economically: Bruce Wayne, intellectually: Peter Parker, physically/culturally: Clark Kent] in his youth.
2) Hero experiences/witnesses traumatic event [violent death of parent/guardian, usually...]
3) Hero develops/discovers "superpower", usually through a random accident of some sort
4) Hero uses "super" identity to seek revenge/justice upon criminals/corrupt society
5) Hero confronts a capable adversary/ "super" villain
6) Hero must find a balance between his "everyday" persona and his "superhero" persona
7) the adventures continue and are revisited.
Now, if thats an accurate description of the superhero tale (some might say formula), how is that any different to the fairy tale journey of, say, Jack of Beanstalk fame?
1) Jack is a poor outsider
2) He and his mother are about to starve to death
3) He discovers magic beans (not exactly a superpower, but certainly supernatural)
4) Jack uses magic beans to seek a better life for him and his mother
5) He confronts a very greedy giant who has been hording all sorts of riches and likes to eat people.
6) He and his mother must find a balance their everyday lives and the knowledge of a world of giants and riches readily available to them with the help of magic beans.
Charles, I am wondering what you mean by "subtle confines of the fairy tale world." According to the above comparison (which I admit is very simplified), the superhero tale does indeed rest easily into the model of the fairy tale journey (the whole "rite of passage" thing with separation, transformation, and reincorporation...)
BTW, I blush to think I am debating comics and fairy tales with a fantastic artist who has collaborated with my favorite author, and whose work I am planning on picking up tonight at my favorite comic shop...God bless the Internet!
Allyson
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Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(2/27/03 1:51:29 pm)
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Fee, Fi, Fo, fum...
Okay, by the subtlety of the fairy tale world I mean that Jack as a character, throughout the many, many Old World as well as American tales featuring him gains his happy ending not by his brawn but by his good nature (Jack is able to hide from the Giant because he is nice to the giant's wife), by luck (planting the seeds instead of eating them, finding the gold and the harp) and most impotantly his wit (he could have stood his ground and duked it out with the giant but he uses his brain and cuts the beanstalk instead). Most super-heroes (especially these days!) are not good natured (to say the least), and perhaps the only luck they run across is being written and drawn by an interesting creator and some of these four color heroes do display wit but rarely, if ever, use it to gain a successful conclusion. A super-hero would have most certainly stood his ground and fought with the giant. That last fact is what I most dislike about the super-hero comic: whoever has the bigger fist and the mightier muscle power wins the day. I simply don't agree with that as a way of living my life (And I wish some of our leaders didn't want so much to be the last bully standing in the school yard) and certainly don't want to propigate that way of thinking. The Appalachian Jack tales are rife with these more subtle character traits in the protagonist even though they are packed with all manor of garish 'super villians' . I've always thought that the iconic super-hero tale is perfect for that adolecent wish/need that all problems are easily and quickly solvable but as I grew older I more and more fall in love with the infinite possibilities of wit, intelligence, good will and language that is the essence of the fairy tale. And, yes, one can always find an exception to the rule (Alan Moore anyone?) but that exception will never eliminate my point.
Anyway I need to go draw...
Best,
Charles
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(2/27/03 4:51:10 pm)
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Re: Fee, Fi, Fo, fum...
if you're willing to venture into the world of manga (Japanese comics), there are some very fairy tale like heros in fantastical settings. I imagine there are some Miyazaki fans here?
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Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(2/27/03 6:15:53 pm)
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Miyazaki...
Absolutely.
I have the entire Studio Gibli (his studio that he and others direct films out of) and am slowly re-viewing all of his conciderable output.
I am completely in love with his vision.
TOTTOR) is one of my all time favorite films, live action or animated, period.
Seeing SPIRITED AWAY on the big screen was a treat. Now there was a film with some extemely well used FT elements woven all through it.
I never could understand how he could come out of that culture though?. A truely extraordinary man/artist.
But I gush...
Best,
Charles
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allysonrosen
Registered User
(2/28/03 8:33:08 am)
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Re: Fee, Fi, Fo, fum...
Hooo boy, Charles...
I showed this thread to the friend who introduced me to comics (the first book he put in my hand was PROMETHEA by Alan Moore closely followed by THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS by Frank Miller), and he is *fuming*! Said friend is a HUGE Batman fan, and he insists that I point out that while there are some pretty rotten comics writers out there who just focus on the "WWF" aspect of action $uperhero comic$, there is a large contingent of comics writers, especially in the last couple of decades (following in Alan Moore's footsteps with SAGA OF THE SWAMP THING), focus upon the *weaknesses* of the heroes...and while their physical conflicts with their nemeses continue, there is also a battle within themselves.
I find myself thinking of folklore and myths that feature protagonist's
physical battles that are expressions of inner/spiritual battles...Hercules
is the first who comes to mind...here's a link I found to a website
that explores Hercules' Twelve Labors : www.steliart.com/hercules..._conte.htm
---Allyson
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(2/28/03 8:46:22 am)
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Re: Miyazaki...
He has a long running manga from which he adapted Nausicca from... I mentioned him first b/c his heros are often young children, and for some reason it seems to me that having very young protagonists who change themselves/their environment so considerably is not as common outside the fairy tale world....
But to get back to the original point.... I definetely agree w/the generalities can be drawn b/w the superhero/fairy tale hero, so let's look at differences:
- supervillian cannot be totally defeated. I'm sure there are exceptions,
but for the most part, it seems to me that killing off the bad guy
is not a good move b/c your hero has nothing left to do. I remember
reading a really funny comic (forgot the author :( ) where Batman
stops someone from harming Joker b/c ultimately, Joker's survival
is more important to the Batman publication than the nameless citizen
he's trying to save. So there's this lack of closure. If you follow
Campbell's model, this means the hero is forever stuck hitting the
nadir, never to return home w/the goods. The equivalent might be:
Odysseus never returns to Ithica, Jack never cuts down the beanstalk
etc.
- superheros seem to be very... similar to me. In fairy tales, there is no gender favoured for heros. They can be very intelligent or someone deemed the village idiot. They can be rich or poor, young or old. Never seen an eighty year old as a superhero. There is also a certain body type associated w/superheros and this too is geared towards a male readership. Unless you count Disney, fairy tales don't favour a certain "look".
I'm also wondering what kind of international reception superhero comics get... Are they massively popular around the world? How do they sell in comparison to works that are produced domestically?...
<edited to clarify/add more info>
Edited by: isthmus nekoi at: 3/3/03 5:07:19 pm
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Charles Vess
Unregistered User
(2/28/03 9:48:14 am)
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Around the world...
North America is the ONLY country where super-hero comics are concidered the 'mainstream'. In all other countries where the 'comic book' is read and enjoyed by ALL age groups there is no one genre that takes all. Japan has million selling books about high school, baseball and golf, etc. In the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, etc the Disney Ducks are at the top of the heap. In France, Spain, Italy all genres are popular. In those countries there are literaly millions of copies of Asterix, Tin Tin, Dylan Dog and Tex sold year after year after year. It makes me both very excited and very depressed when I walk into a Graphic Novel shop in France or Italy and see the vast range of well written, well drawn books that they have to offer in large, full color, attractive hardcover formats.
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Maria
Cecile
Registered User
(2/28/03 9:55:02 am)
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Miyazaki
I am a huge fan. I think My Neighbor Totoro is the best children's movie ever made, and Kiki's Delivery Service is close. Spirited Away is fabulous. My favorite part about Totoro is that it's an invented fairy tale creature rather than something actually out of Japanese myth, and yet it's as real as can be. I gush also...as I sit here looking at the miniature Totoro that sits on my desk at work.
Maria C.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(2/28/03 9:40:00 pm)
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an observation
I am not much of a comic book fan, although I can appreciate good graphic art whereever I see it. What I see in this discussion though is that superhero comics might serve the same purpose as Disney fairy tales: that is they generate interest to those who might otherwise have passed the genre completely by. We have repeatedly noted that many of the hardcore fairy tale lovers on this board were first introduced to them by Disney. It was only after a Disney version permeated their brains that they sought out the less adulterated (or should that be more adult) version of the tales.
To CV: I have a son named Thor. It was only after I had named him that I became aware of the comic version. I have little interest in this "superhero" version, but my 5-year old son LOVES the idea that he is a comic book hero. So there is some (albeit minor) redeeming value in "Thor".
To AllysonR: Welcome back! We missed you.
Jess
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allysonrosen
Registered User
(3/3/03 9:39:51 am)
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Re: an observation
Thanks, Jess! Its nice to be missed...;-)
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Gregor9
Registered User
(3/3/03 11:36:32 am)
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Understanding Comix
Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" is a book I would recommend to accompany this discussion. He incorporates as wide a view of what comics are, how they're represented, where they come from, as anyone I've ever read (and that's really only Will Eisner--this is not a subject that's received much appreciative analysis).
Reading his book reminded me of my first view of the Sistine Chapel. Staring straight overhead, I thought, "It's a huge comic book." And it is...which is not to denigrate the work, and that's kind of McCloud's point, too.
Greg
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(3/3/03 4:49:35 pm)
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Re: Understanding Comix
Oh that is a *great* book... McCloud also has a website w/online comics:
www.scottmccloud.com/
----
Thanks for clarifying about international reception, Mr. Vess/Charles (which would you prefer?). That's what I suspected... I remember seeing translated superhero comics in Japan, but manga *by far* outweighed the imports. The diversity in manga genres are great. Maybe b/c their industry is totally freelance?.... Also, I find this fascinating b/c other American genres: Hollywood formula/genre film, Disney film do very well in penetrating foreign markets, and yet for some reason, the superhero comic doesn't. Perhaps this is partly economic? America has totally dominated the international film industry ever since WW1, and now w/the consolidation of media conglomerates (Disney/ABC being one of those), their control over international markets is growing... Hm... <thinking of globalization, mass media and cultural resistance>......
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MarkS
Unregistered User
(3/3/03 9:40:25 pm)
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Miyazaki and Chinese hero/fable comics
I'm another longtime fan of Miyazaki and anime in general. I agree that Totoro is one of the all time great children's film, as great as any live action movie, and so is Spirited Away. Princess Mononoke, Kiki, Nausicca, City in the Sky - they're all among the best anime available. I would also recommend a film by a friend of Miyazaki's, Takahata, called "Grave of the Fireflies." This may be the best animated film ever made, at least where realism is concerned. You almost forget you're watching animation after a while - this is the movie you tell people who don't think much of "cartoons" to watch. It is nearly suicidally depressing, and a great anti-war film from the standpoint of what it does to children, without all the political posturing by celebrities we're getting recently over Iraq. Here's a link for it:
www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/grave/
Also, digressing slightly; since the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, there is a wave of classic Chinese Wuxia graphic novels being published. I'm finding them at the local comic store. Get them while you can - once they're gone, it may be another dynasty or two before you'll find them again...
One other thing, if you live in L.A., UCLA is now showing a Chinese Wuxia/Martial Arts film series at its Melnitz theater. Many of these are films (some of them silent!) that have never been seen here. For the platry $7 admission, you get two films plus a free exhaustive book on the history of the Chinese martial arts movie. The good news is that these movies may soon see release on video/DVD. Thank you, Ang Lee!
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allysonrosen
Registered User
(3/6/03 10:53:03 am)
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Re: Understanding Comix
Thanks for mentioning Scott McCloud, Gregory...his book was how I was re-introduced to comics in my college years. I remember pulling it casually out of a pile of text books my boyfriend had just bought for his illustration class, and getting sucked into McCloud's look at the relationship of comics to iconography, linguistics, and ultimately the way audiences view the ARTS in all forms...after I finished reading it, I would never look at "Archie" the same way again... ;-)
Pretty good for a comic book about comic books....(he also has a newer book out called "Re-Inventing Comics," which discusses the role of electronic media in sequential art and the communication of art in general.)
Allyson
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(3/6/03 1:02:40 pm)
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Grave of the Fireflies
I have to echo Mark's endorsement of "Grave of the Fireflies." I don't think I could bear to watch it again; I was a mess for days after. But I'm very glad I saw it.
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