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Comment
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Fianna
Registered User
(6/3/03 11:01 am)
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Question for all you authors out there...
To all you authors out there...out of curiousity, when you start a new story do you outline the entire plot before you begin writing, or do you just have a basic plot then let it unfold how it wishes?
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/3/03 11:39 am)
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Re: Question for all you authors out there...
To quote the Man with No Name: "There are two kinds of people in this world, my friend..." Or in this case, two extremes: Outliners who work out every little detail before they begin writing; and intuiters, who fly by the seat of their pants and do not under any circumstances *want* to know everything. And the rest of us fall somewhere inbetween. I outline stories most often after writing what I've taken to calling (courtesy of another writer on this site, Judith Berman) a 'zero draft', which is about how much I need to write to figure out where I think I'm going.
Books and chapters and scenes, I've outlined, but almost always ignore once I've done so. For me, it's all messy and organic. And as a result, I probably hit more dead ends than an outliner, and take longer. But I consider this process more open to surprises for both me and the reader.
The outlining process I use, I cribbed from John Cleese of all people, who described it as the method he used for writing episodes of "Fawlty Towers." It just works for me.
And now you can expect to hear about as many answers as there are writers who check in on this site, because no two people work quite the same way, either.
Greg
Edited by: Gregor9 at: 6/4/03 5:37 am
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(6/3/03 12:15 pm)
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Nine and Sixty Ways...
Greg definitely called that one.
As one datapoint in the coming avalanche I'll say: it depends. If I'm writing a novel, I'll write a very broad outline first, and feel no obligation to stick to it if I see a better way or the book demands one. For short stories, sometimes all I have is an image and I write the story mainly to find out what the story is. For instance, in my piece in the current LCRW I simply had an image of the two characters (whom I later discovered to be Michiko and Mai) walking through dark streets carrying their lantern, and I was as curious as anyone else might be as to what it was all about.
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Nalo
Registered User
(6/3/03 1:48 pm)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
I'm definitely in the camp of "figure it out as you go along, prune and graft as necessary." However, nowadays I have to write an outline in order to sell a book. It can take me longer than writing the book itself. Last outline I wrote, my agent said, "well, it's not really an outline, but let's see what we can do." And grumping aside, I find that I do end up writing outlines once I get far enough into the book that I have a sense where it's going, and that I have found those helpful. My new novel, _The Salt Roads,_ involves someone who shuttles about in time, rather than perceiving it linearly as we do. So by about 2/3 of the way through that puppy, I had to make a chart of what was going to happen/had happened when. For short stories, I don't outline.
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Laura
McCaffrey
Registered User
(6/3/03 3:25 pm)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
Well I'm not quite as snazzy or experienced a writer as the rest who have posted - but the best way to procrastinate and not write, of course, is to write about writing.
For my novels, I use a similar style to those described above. I tend to outline when just beginning, when stuck, and when feeling a bit insecure about the books overall pacing. Outlines are very brief, more like lists of what happens emotionally in the chapter, or reminders to myself to weave in specific threads. My favorite scenes, however, are ones I never envisioned writing.
LauraMc
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/3/03 9:16 pm)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
The longer a story I'm writing, the more I seem to need an outline. I can hold a very short story in my head all at once, but when it gets longer I can't.
I'm finding it very helpful to learn about outlining and planning. The only people I know who say their whole process of writing is easy and fun, are those who plan a lot. Wish I could....
Rosemary
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/4/03 5:49 am)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
Rosemary,
Agreed, the longer the piece the more it needs outlining, even if--like me--you don't refer to the outline once you've written it. For me it's more of a revision device, a yardstick against which I can go back and measure what I *did* write, make sure I didn't leave out any salient points, etc. (I also tend to cast novels like films, just to give myself a reference point for the characters.)
Kate Wilhelm, I'm informed, is the exact opposite, someone who outlines every miniscule detail before she starts writing. I've heard a writer of best-seller thrillers say that he'll spend a year on "preparing" the book and then maybe 3 months writing it. I read one of his books, and it was very detailed, and precisely executed...but not terribly interesting to me beyond the surface--do the cops catch the killer. Nothing else is going on, and maybe that's because all the plannning is of the surface texture of the book, and I'd rather read something richer unless I'm on an airplane. Someone else may disagree. As I said above, we all work to suit our fancy; and frankly, hardly anything I figure out on one novel turns out to be useful in creating the next one--the process seems to evolve to fit the nature of the book, in a relationship I've yet to fathom. Maybe if I wrote a series, that would be different. But I think the "learning and planning" process is a lifelong one. If you don't enjoy the process, you ain't a'gonna write much. Which is why in part we all make it our own.
Greg
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/4/03 6:07 am)
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It probably depends
Greg,
Does the degree of outlining also depend upon the type of book you are writing? I wonder because I am still working on this novel (about half done) and I have only a general outline mostly because I wanted to know how to get to the end without losing the story. I HATE books where the story is wonderful, but it is clear the author had no clue how to end it. But what I keep finding is that I have so much research to do during the writing process. The story will be coming along fine and then I have to stop while I figure something important out that I "forgot" to research because the story has taken a slightly different turn. My book has a lot of technical things riding just under the surface - much like your Fitcher's Bride does. In many ways, a more detailed outline would have been useful. Thoughts?
Jess
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(6/4/03 7:04 am)
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Re: Question for all you authors out there...
I don't outline! I get the germ of an idea and it begins to
grow. As seeds come along, I make a note or two, but
generally, I sit at the keyboard and see the plot develop
before me, on the screen.
I also see it in my mind, as if I was watching a movie. As
I type, I visualize. This gives me detail and I pass that
detail along to my reader. I have no idea where the story
is going, I just let it flow. It connects itself together,
in sequence, as I write it down.
This is just me. I'm amazed (and a bit jealous) at the
number of "outliners" out there.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/5/03 6:32 am)
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Re: Question for all you authors out there...
RymRytr1,
Yeah, those outliners scare me, too. They also produce about 20 times more books than I do.
Jess,
For me anyway, the potential hazard with approaching the book as you're doing is that you can get halfway through it, then go do research that you likely ought to have done before you wrote, and find out that everything you did has been invalidated, or that there was a fact-based turn the story could have taken that would have been so much better than where it's gone. I've done this before (ex. my novels based on the Tain Bo Cuailnge--I started and wrote the first 100 pages of TAIN maybe 5 times, trying to find a way in, none of them satisfactory; then finally read about the poet Senchan Torpeist who, according to legend, slept on the grave of Fergus Mac Roich, and was given the story by Fergus' ghost. That one piece of *real* lore gave me the format for both the novels I did. And the 500 pages of warm-ups constituted a couple of years' worth of dead ends). So my voice-of-experience says "Do your research first."
With Fitcher, I was lucky, in that I'd researched for a non-fiction book about spiritualism, and had read a good deal of history on religion in 18th-19th century America, on mesmerism, utopian experiments, etc., and made use of all of it. I hadn't read about candle-making, however, so when I came to that, I *did* have to stop writing, go to a library and spend a day researching the chandler's craft...so arguably there *are* smaller research projects within the scope of the book that you don't need to do until you get to them.
GF
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(6/5/03 7:12 am)
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Re: Question for all you authors out there...
Gregor9 is correct! Research is most important. Once can not write about the feelings of the young mother, who has just lost a 3 yr old to kidnapping, unless one has been on the inside.
I read alot! I listen to books on tape. I have a book (tape) going in my car and another in my bedroom (which I end up rewinding a lot!)
If you want to read/listen to someone who does his reasearch well, and therein writes well also, pickup a book by Steven Saylor. His ancient Roman detective (Gordianus the Finder) is so well written and entertaining, especially on tape!
The old addage that you can only write about what you know, is very true.
(P.S. I didn't mean to indicate that they scared me, I said that
I was jealous).
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Nalo
Registered User
(6/5/03 8:13 pm)
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Re: Question for all you authors out there...
God, research! (bangs head against nearest hard object in effort to make the pain stop). My new novel covers three different countries and three different time periods in each country, none of which I knew a jot about when I started writing the novel. The novel had been accepted for publication, so I ended up writing to deadline and doing the research simultaneously. And there was so much that I needed to KNOW (and probably still do) that I was terrified to even begin the research because it seemed so huge a task, but I needed to know the history in order to write the novel, and around and around...yes, it would have been ideal for me to have completed the research first. Even now, I'm not sure I'm done with it. On just one of those time periods alone, I could have gotten a phD and still not felt knowledgeable enough. At some point I had to amass what I knew and just start writing. i updated and changed it as I went along. In some ways, it's probably a blessing for this particular project that I'm the type of writer who's comfortable with switching directions midstream to follow another avenue that looks more promising.
But the next novel I write is going to be a great fat fantasy where I MAKE IT ALL UP. Except for the details of cashew farming, of course...
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/5/03 8:15 pm)
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Learning curves and research
Yup, Greg, there is definitely a learning curve to this novel writing. None of the "big" stuff was unresearched, it was that little niggling stuff...where exactly the mass transportation goes or what do Twainese eat for breakfast, or what kind of id is required to get on base after 9-11. Not storyline breakers, but important to make the story good.
Oh those outliners. Sounds like a good book...
Jess
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(6/6/03 6:06 am)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
And there's the advantage to the "Clan of the Cave Bear"
type of novel
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/6/03 7:36 pm)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
I've heard a writer of best-seller thrillers say that he'll spend a year on "preparing" the book and then maybe 3 months writing it. I read one of his books, and it was very detailed, and precisely executed...but not terribly interesting to me beyond the surface--do the cops catch the killer. Nothing else is going on, and maybe that's because all the plannning is of the surface texture of the book
Maybe if he was behind on his deadline or something.... I don't do research-type stories, but I hope that learning to outline more will leave me more free to get into rich associations, tangents, symbolism, echoes, etc. So far, the more I've planned the structure, and know what the plot-affecting outcome of the scene is going to be -- the more I can play around with the non-structural things.
For example, in "The Girl Who Could Not Shudder", it didn't matter to the plot exactly what she saw in the castle of horrors. The outcome was that she would fall down a shaft, find gold in the basement, and a door out. Because it didn't matter, my muse came up with a bunch of short allusions, a Miss Havisham sort of character, a fall similar to Alice's but with several allusions to Charles Williams, and "This is the girl who came out of the castle smelling like a rose."
Rosemary
http://www.rosemarylake.com
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Morgana
le fay
Registered User
(6/7/03 12:30 pm)
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Re: Nine and Sixty Ways...
Ok. So. I may only be 13, but I can write. I generally just let
ideas come. I dont specifically sit down at a desk and fore myself
to write, but if i have an idea, i grab the nearest piece of paper
and start a story. Not a very efficient method, I know, but i swear
I'll get at least one story finished this year!!!
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(6/7/03 6:05 pm)
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Ideas
That's excellent Morgana, you should always have pen & paper ready. Ideas for character names, plots, side-plots, scraps of info...
Just being 13 is no disadvantage. Indeed, you have a fresh knowledge of what I lost long, long ago: Youth. Write what you know, when you know it. There is no magic age, where one suddenly becomes intelligent or advanced. The only advantage to age is the wealth of knowledge one gains.
Good on ya', as me ole Da would say!
Rym Rytr 1
Edited by: RymRytr1 at: 6/9/03 6:59 am
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(6/7/03 11:45 pm)
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Late to the Ball
Cinderella late to the ball as usually, here:
When I am writing my own stuff, I generally just "fly into the mist," as one writer friend calls it. I start my characters and then run after them, frantically yelling "Wait for me."
But if I am writing a novel with someone else (Bruce Coville, Adam Stemple, Bob Harris) I am generally forced to outline. Or at least sit down and talk about plot. Because otherwise it becomes the game of stump-the-collaborator and there is no real book there, just a series of "gotchas!"
Jane Yolen
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Nalo
Registered User
(6/8/03 4:05 am)
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Re: Late to the Ball
"stump-the-collaborator," huh? I've never thought of it that way. Useful to bear in mind as I try to work on a collaboration with a friend. We've tried to write together before, with little success and lots of aggravation on both sides. This time though, we managed to put together a proposal for a short novel without having the project dissolve into us retreating to opposite corners of the room, baffled and miffed at each other. This is a good sign, I think.
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/9/03 5:09 am)
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Stump the Collaborator
Jane,
I think this should be made into a panel event a a convention. "Two writers, forced to collaborate, unwilling to tell each other anything. What will they create?" It can't be any worse than "The Talisman."
GF
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Nalo
Registered User
(6/9/03 2:41 pm)
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Re: Stump the Collaborator
I can suggest it for Worldcon.
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