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Author
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Comment
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/30/03 11:16 pm)
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How much detail in 20,000 word books?
I've yet to find just the right age level / detail level for my fantasy writing. I'm tired of short fairy tales, lapidary work.... I'm trying to do 20,000-40,000 words all in one story. But in that length, I think I'm aiming it too old, trying for too much detail and realism. I need some models....
I suppose the closest thing I've seen to what I want is the Oz books. Baum's scenes are a little too long, his pace too slow, too much importance to characters. Plumly Thompson's (sp?) ideas are a little thicker on the ground, but.... Maybe MAYA THE BEE....
Narnia, Nesbit etc are much too old, too novelistic, too much detail, too character-focused. Dr. Doolittle is younger, but the memoir thing is also too character-focused....
I greatly admire many chapters from Xanth of the period of CENTAUR AISLE or CASTLE ROOGNA. The walking on smoke, the goblliin seige.... I like the plain vanilla third person, which stays out of the way of the magic, tho for my own final draft I'll probably use something like Pullman's omni. But overall even in these Xanths there is too much character development, relationship dynamics, mushy stuff.... :-)
Rosemary
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Jess
Unregistered User
(5/2/03 7:58 am)
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What age are you looking to write towards
My eight-year old loves a variety of fantasy in a variety of lengths. He reads Redwall (very long) and short stories. He is currently enjoying Artimis Fowl, which I picked up recently. He has read, and reread WOZ many times. My 10-year old is reading Mary Poppins. As a model, it is more a tying together of a series of short stories. If you are looking for a mix, try rereading some Rahl Dahl (did I spell that right). His books vary in length and they are really about characters. I have yet to find a child age 5 - 12 that doesn't like his books. Jane Yolan, yes the ubiquitous, has a variety of lengths of books as well to use as model.
Are you trying to avoid the coming of age type story?
As for details, perhaps you should focus on that which forwards the story or is essential to set a mood. Younger children are quick to add detail if you give them a good sketch. Depending upon the story, character development can occur throughout the story or as an essential plot to the story. Meaning, as the story unfolds, we learn more and more about the character and essentially shift something fundemental in the nature of the character.
Hope this helps.
Jess
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Gregor9
Registered User
(5/2/03 12:57 pm)
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Re: What age are you looking to write towards
(This message was left blank)
Edited by: Gregor9 at: 5/2/03 1:00:29 pm
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Gregor9
Registered User
(5/2/03 12:59 pm)
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Re: What age are you looking to write towards
Rosemary,
You also might want to look at things like "The Phantom Tollbooth" or the works of Daniel Pinkwater, unless he's going for something older than you want. I think you can write a comfortable 40,000-60,000 word length and hold many young readers' attention. Harry Potter certainly does.
Or Lloyd Alexander for that matter.
Pullman's books are for an older audience and are much larger, detail-oriented and complex. Baum's pace is slower I suspect because he was writing for a time when slower pace was the norm.
The first book I ever remember reading was Barbara Leonie Piccard's retelling of The Odyssey. I was only 10, and it's at least 30,000, and I couldn't put it down.
Good luck with this dilemma,
Greg
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(5/3/03 2:53 am)
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Two words
I have just two words for you: Bruce Coville. He is the master at that size book, both fantasy and sf. (And I am not too bad myself.) Look at his works and see how much is forward motion, Brownian motion, and chatter. How much is cliffhanger, how much is decoration.
Jane
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Jess
Unregistered User
(5/3/03 9:35 am)
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I second Jane
Rosemary and Jane,
Bruce Coville! Right! We always have at least one of his books lying around the house - definitely. I tripped over one this morning someone had left on the stairs. I should have asked my 10-year old-he would've told me that too!
Lynne Reid Banks author of "The Indian in the Cupboard" is another author writing fantasy books of that length.
Jess
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(5/10/03 10:12 am)
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Two words: thanks thanks
Bruce Coville is getting warm.... He was new to me, I'm looking at others on that shelf....
They and Jane's may still be a little to old for what my muse wants to do, darn it. Maybe a condensed, faster-moving Oz....
I was the wrong age, haven't read her whole huge canon....
Rosemary
www.rosemarylake.com
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/18/03 9:05 pm)
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Down to Enid Blyton
forward motion, Brownian motion, and chatter. How much is cliffhanger, how much is decoration.
Jane,
What fascinating terms. Haven't been able to find the combination anywhere. Did you make them up just now?
After careful study, I decided Coville is too advanced for me too. :-) As are your books, those I've found.
It seems to be a case for Enid Blyton! At least for the rough draft. I've only read a few of hers, but I was just sketching a few minor scenes, and slipped into her pace and level of detail. It does seem to fit. The bones of a scene, just enough basic detail, a good satisfying pace. I can add more detail later, without getting bogged down in it now. (I can imagine adding a lot more detail and character interaction, at some later stage.)
I wonder if there are other books in the range of Blyton's.
Is anyone else here working at this age level?
Rosemary
r@rosemarylake.com
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 6/18/03 9:21 pm
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/19/03 6:26 am)
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What age?
Rosemary,
As a mother of three boys, ages 5 to 10, and a volunteer at 2 different elementary schools, I have worked with lots of readers and seen lots of books for early elementary readers. There is a wide range of reading skill and an even wider range of interest. For young advanced readers, i.e., those past the decoding stage, it is often difficult to find good books that do not deal with more mature subject matter. I imagine the opposite is also true - finding advanced mature subject matter in very rudemenatary language.
Are you looking for your book to be read aloud versus read by the child? If so, you might want to check out Jim Trelease's "Read Aloud Handbook". He has an abbreviated list of some good read aloud books at various levels.
For first chapter books, you might look at the "Little Bear" series or "Frog and Toad". Not exactly fantasy, but they will give you an idea of pacing. There can be less than 6 months to as many as three years to get from "Little Bear" to Bruce Coville, Roald Dahl, or Jane's books. It all depends upon the readers. From the books I have seen/read, I would place Bruce Coville at the 8 to 11 year old reader; Dahl at the 6 to 11 year old reader (his books are more varied); and Jane at the 8 and up reader (again, it depends on the reader and the book).
You probably want to stay away from self-exploration or serious topic books for readers under age 9. The risk is that you will hit something they are not ready to even think about. Some of books can cause great worry in young children, but enjoyed thoroughly just two years later (i.e., Sounder, Old Yellar, the Witch at Blackbird Pond). There are children 6 and 8 that "can read" these books. I worry though that these kids will try to read them before they are ready and then never pick them up again. Incidentally, I have seen this often with the LOR.
One word about HP: children at very young ages seem able to enjoy and read the HP books. These are obviously longer than 20,000 words, but you can get an idea of pacing from them.
Hope this helps.
Jess
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/19/03 10:45 pm)
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Re: What age?
Thanks, Jess.
Where would Blyton fit in your grouping?
When I said 'age level', I had in mind the factors you mentioned. Not just 'reading level' but also complexity of characterization, richness of description, etc. Later drafts may end up being for an older group, but for first drafts to keep from confusing myself, I'm aiming at something as bare as Blyton.
I'm glad to hear that about Harry Potter. Maybe that's one reason it's been so popular: lots of richness still accessible to very young readers.
Rosemary
http://www.rosemarylake.com
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Laura
Unregistered User
(6/20/03 5:59 am)
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book suggestion
Would Edward Eager's books be closer to what you're looking for?
They're short magical adventures with a similar feel to E Nesbit's books but more streamlined. They are quick paced and tend to be one short adventure per chapter, all linked by a common magical object and common characters.
Laura
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/20/03 9:19 am)
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Nesbit, Eager, and Baum
Rosemary,
I would peg Eager at about 8 to 11. "Half-Magic" is a third/fourth grade favorite. I remember enjoying Nesbit at the same age though; the "Five Children and It" was a favorite of mine. Nesbit might have a little longer age span. The later Frank L. Baum books, the ones after "The Wizard of Oz", seem popular with this age group as well. My niece spent the summer she was 9 reading all of the Baum books. These books are more popular with girls than boys - or at least it seems so. I do not remember Enid Blyton very well so I cannot comment on her books. I have seen advanced readers devour "The Chronicles of Narnia" at 7, but I have also seen readers in the 6th grade (11-12 years old) enjoy them. I think someone mentioned the "Phantom Toll Booth". The kids I see reading this are in the 8-10 age bracket.
By the time kids reach twelve or thirteen, they seem interested in more serious fantasy/sci-fi, i.e., Dune, the LOR. So this age seems like a definite break point in the type of books being read.
For kids under 9, you might want to look at the Magic Treehouse series by Mary Pope Osborne. I don't care much for the books, but the kids love them. Even advanced readers enjoy them as a quick read. They are bit shorter than 20,000 words though.
Jess
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(6/21/03 6:13 pm)
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Progress report
I'm making progress. I've hit on a size of scene that feels good: about one page. Not a picture book sort of story, but kind of like things that would happen in RPG gaming, short incidents.
My inner child or muse child learned from following recipies on cake mix, playing the piano by sheet music.... She likes leftbrain structures to support wild content. She liked theme writing, with topic sentences, exposition, summary.
She's delighted with a structure of three paragraphs, one for setting an immediate goal, one paragraph of interaction, and one dwelling on the result and setting a new direction.
R.L.
http://www.houseboatonthestyx.com
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(6/22/03 7:43 am)
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stuff
"forward motion, Brownian motion, and chatter"
I made up the idea of linking those together in a description, but they all mean something.
"Forward motion" is obvious and means the plot moving along at a good forward clip.
"Browning motion" is a term from physics, and if you think of dust blowing around when there a clean up in your house, it's that circular upwards motion.
"Chatter" means talk, means lots of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
And by the way, Coville writes for kids of all different ages. SARAH'S UNICORN is younger than SPACE BRAT which is much younger than MY TEACHER IS AN ALIEN which is very much younger than AMRAGEDDON SUMMER.
Same with me. Young chapter books like HOBO TOAD & THE MOTORCYCLE GANG through middle grade WILD HUNT and
The Tartan Magic series to older books like DEVIL'S ARITHMETIC and the Pit Dragon books and ARMAGEDDON SUMMER.
Jane
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denag
Registered User
(6/22/03 2:25 pm)
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left/rightbrain
Rosemary,
I was fascinated by your mention of your "muse child", who "...likes leftbrain structures to support wild content...theme writing, with topic sentences, exposition, summary...."
i'd be interested to hear more about her. Also, more about this
leftbrain/rightbrain thing (there's another discussion dipping into
this on surlalune at present). Am I right in thinking that when
you talk of left-brain processes you mean structured and logical.
If so, how would you define right-brain processes? (or am i being
too left-brain here? :eek ) Your sentence above seems to suggest
that you like to integrate the two in your writing, one providing
the content, the other providing structure. Is it really as neat
as that?
One other question - what do you mean by "theme writing", "topic sentences" etc? I haven't heard these terms before and am very curious.
Dena
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/24/03 8:21 pm)
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Coville and Jane
Rosemary,
One of the problems with trying to ascertain what age an author writes for is that it seems it is impossible to know all of the books out there.
Aside to Jane: Sorry, Jane, if any offense was taken by my lack of knowledge of those easier readers. I know that you write for varied audiences, although I have seen only your picture books for the very young. I hadn't run into the more mature/very simple Coville yet, while I have repeatedly stumbled into the "My Teacher's an Alien" level books. It seems that I am missing a big chunk of his work. Now that is GOOD news.
I hope my comments helped a little, Rosemary, even if my bibliography is incomplete.
It sounds as if you are well on your way to sketching/writing your
story. Keep us posted on your progress. :D
Jess
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rosemarylaake
Unregistered User
(7/1/03 9:49 pm)
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rightbrain etc
I was fascinated by your mention of your "muse child", who "...likes leftbrain structures to support wild content...theme writing, with topic sentences, exposition, summary...."
Ok, I blogged some examples at
http://www.midnightengineers.com/rl/blogs/blog-mini.html
i'd be interested to hear more about her. Also, more about this leftbrain/rightbrain thing (there's another discussion dipping into this on surlalune at present).
I couldn't find that. I blogged more about this at
http://www.midnightengineers.com/rl/blogs/blog-personal-Jn14.html
Your sentence above seems to suggest that you like to integrate the two in your writing, one providing the content, the other providing structure. Is it really as neat as that?
I'm experimenting, trying to find ways they can work together. Taking turns.... My rigihtbrain muse can't do all the content, I'm trying to get my leftbrain to do some content too.
what do you mean by "theme writing", "topic sentences" etc?
'Theme' is a term for 'essay'. 'Topic sentence' is a good key word for finding recipies for writing school essays. There are some very rigid formulas out there, most people would hate them. But I always liked them. I have such trouble writing scenes, I'm trying to apply some of those formulas to scenes.
Rosemary
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denag
Registered User
(7/2/03 8:52 am)
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Re: rightbrain etc
Gosh! I just looked at your blogs, Rosemary (what's a blog?).
Thank you for the links - they were a revelation. I've thought a
lot lately about technique and style. But I've been hampered by
my ignorance. I don't know anything about all these terms such as
"omni" and "tight third" and points of view
etc...although I can guess at some of them. Was my education lacking?
:\ Where can I read more about them, to get familiar with the language?
I suspect that writing well does not depend on knowing these terms. But I think they could be useful handles for getting to grips with things that I notice as I write, and as I read, helping me to focus my writing, and improve it.
By the way, the other current mention of lefbrain/rightbrain was a post by AlisonPegg on page 3 of the discussion entitled "I love fairytales and really could use your help(Pleeeeese)". But the discussion then went off in a different direction and didn't follow that thread, I think.
Interesting for me - all new stuff for my whole-brain to deal with.
Dena
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(7/2/03 1:47 pm)
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disclaimer
I'm sorry, I'm being awfully stupid this week. Stressful trip, now a bit of flu.
I like experimenting with applying those essay recipies to my fiction, because I learned the recipies long ago in school. And I've got special problems (with scenes etc) that most people don't have. I've got those old habits from school, so might as well put them to use. But for some other fiction writer, those essay recipies would probably be harmful! They don't really fit fiction, and they're really too rigid for essays either! Most of the essay examples given are awful!
Even the terms that do fit fiction (point of view, omni, tight third, etc) aren't really needed, and can be a hindrance. I see all the rules and such as kind of like building a wheel chair. Some of us need wheel chairs, others can walk and run and dance on their own bare feet! Some need sheet music, others can play by ear and make up their own jazz melodies.
I think the best thing is to do some writing on your own and see how it comes out, before worrying about any terms or rules. If you can finish a story on your own, then show it to some nice people who know the terms. (There's a writers' board here, and at hollylisle.com.) If they find problems they'll tell you, and they'll tell you which terms to study. Just don't let anyone tell you you "have to" do it a certain way!
As far as getting the product right, I think it's kind of like learning good grammar. Someone who grew up hearing good grammar, will naturally use it, they don't need to know worlds like 'noun', 'verb', 'subject', 'predicate'. Same with good fiction writing. If you've grown up reading the same kind of stories you want to write, you probably already have the right habits of style, point of view, etc.
If you can't finish a story, get stuck, then it might be good to read about how other people keep from getting stuck. Some make an outline. Others do world-building first. Others start at the ending or climax and work backwards. Etc. This is something you can't see just from looking at the finished products.
Good luck,
Rosemary
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denag
Registered User
(7/3/03 12:34 am)
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technique
Thanks for this, Rosemary. Nothing to apologise for. And far, far from stupid.
I guess I already knew you might tell me not to worry about formal terms unless I had a problem. And I know you're right, really.
I am already (pre-emptively!) taking your advice, and writing in every spare moment. I have very few spare moments, so I tend to pour out a lot of intense stuff that's been building up. Once I've captured that safely, I'm usually out of time, By the time I get back to it, there's a whole load of new ideas and thoughts to deal with.
Although I'm trying to re-arrange my life to give me more time, at present I don't get much chance to experiment with the way I write. This is frustrating, and part of me is always on the look-out for "short-cuts", so that I can do my ideas justice, as soon as possible. I know really the long way round is better, really. I'm just terribly impatient.
On the other hand, I still wonder if there could be benefits from knowing more about style and technique, so that I could look at my favourite writers through new eyes, saying "oh, I see how they've put that together, and how that contributes to it's strength." But perhaps I can wait, at least until I've finished a story (or am really stuck, not just for lack of time).
(I have joined the writers' group here, by the way, but haven't dared post anything yet. Not that I have anything that is half-way ready anyway, but even when I do, I'll probably be very cowardly about showing it to anyone.)
Dena
(P.S. I hope you feel better soon!)
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