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Author
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Comment
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shuchi
Registered User
(7/22/03 7:05 am)
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fair/dark - representation of colour in fairy tales
Hi everybody
i just registered. am interested in how fairy tales and myths represent the heroine as fair and the monster as dark and forbidding. This projection of monstrosity,of the other, persists in our advertisements, i.e., in India.
Having read Marina Warner's Managing Monsters, I got thinking- the monster in tne context of the Indian cosmetic industry, which is, in turn, very much an extension of the global cosmetic industry, is colour.
I look forward to your thoughts on the subject.
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Mary
Unregistered User
(7/22/03 9:16 am)
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Fair
One should note that until quite recently -- early part of the twentieth century in Europe -- "fair" as a color was considered beautiful because it showed your family was rich enough that you could stay inside. Peasants, who worked out in the sun, got dark.
Whatever makes you look rich makes you look beautiful, and no one's discovered a way around that yet.
(In Europe, at any rate, the combination of factory work and rich people being able to vacation at the Riviera meant that the rich/poor orientation flipfloped, and the appraisal of the value followed.)
And, of course, heroines are typically beautiful.
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Ron McCutchan
Unregistered User
(7/22/03 2:52 pm)
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Fair
There's a religious angle on this, as well, since the medieval depiction of the Virgin Mary was as blonde and fair (influenced, I'm sure, by the perception of fair skin as being a sign of nobility) and demons and the devil (i.e. monsters) as being burnt and blackened by the fires of hell--which would reinforce the stereotypes by circular argument. Was there a discussion on this in FROM THE BEAST TO THE BLONDE? (It's been a few years since I read it).
Then--as an ironic side note-- you've also got the much-reproduced image of Venetian courtesans bleaching their hair with lemon juice in the sun to lighten their hair color to blonde, while the "honorable" wives and daughters would go about veiled (though, I suppose, one might argue the "honorable" women would already BE blonde, naturally).
Another side note--your mentioning India reminded me--I was present at a discussion of folk heroes at the International Board of Books for Young People Congress in New Delhi in 1998, and one of the more interesting aspects of the discussion was the presentation by Brazilian delegates on the Brazilian folk character Saci--a trickster with only one leg (a monopod), who is always depicted in a red cap, smoking a pipe, and with very black skin. The Brazilian delegate/presenters felt very certain that Saci's skin color had nothing to do with ethnicity, despite the African and native South-American influences on Brazilian culture. (Tales of the character arose in the late 18th century among the Tupa-Guarani Indians in southern Brazil). I wasn't so sure. . . As pertaining to the positive/negative portrayal of light/dark, I think it's interesting that, like many other trickster figures, Saci is seen as annoying but not malevolent.
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shuchi
Registered User
(7/23/03 4:41 am)
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Fair
The socio-economic background indeed had- has a lot to do with this perception of fair/dark in positive/negative terms. Rich more often than not equals beautiful. But ofcourse there's denim and working-class chic which revolutionised fashion post the first war.
It's interesting Ron McCutchan mentions the religious angle. Indian female divinities are conventionally portrayed as fair=beautiful, with the exception of Kali, a dionysiac figure, who probably originated as a non-Aryan cult goddess, and was later assimilated into the mainstream of the Hindu pantheon.
An analogue of the Brazilian Saci would be the blue/dark god Krishna, accounts of whose tricks and mischievousness are the staple of Hindu folklore.
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Blackwolf
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 6:47 am)
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Fair vs Dark
Hello.
I have been reading the various threads with interest and this topic caught my eye.
I hail from a Southeast Asian country myself (Singapore, to be precise) and there are also a lot of advertisements showing fair-skinned Asian or Caucasian models or actresses, either promoting cosmetics or electrical appliances. Likewise, the fair-skinned beauty dominates in local television drama serials and movies.
It makes me wonder if fairness of skin is a benchmark of purity and innocence, ideal virtues predominantly for women to aspire to and model themselves against (or assimilate into themselves as part of character development). This motif is quite widespread though as in the multitudes of art and stories in European and non-European cultures.
I am reminded somewhat of Joan of Arc. We never know how she actually looked like in person. But in the numerous illustrations and textual portrayals of her, she is depicted as fair-skinned and blonde-haired. The picture of the beautiful maiden - pure and innocent.
Cheers,
Blackwolf
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RymRytr1
Registered User
(7/23/03 7:25 am)
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Re: Fair vs Dark
Part of the "fairness" of skin in advertising, is economic. "They" want you to be envious of the traits and life style of Americans. Emulate Americans
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Mary
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 8:28 am)
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Tans
If the Americans effect is what they are after, tanning in the US would be a hard to explain phenomena, especially as tanning can give you cancer.
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Mary
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 8:34 am)
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purity
But in the numerous illustrations and textual portrayals of her, she is depicted as fair-skinned and blonde-haired. The picture of the beautiful maiden - pure and innocent.
Quite possibly. Part of the reason is that blond hair, in particular, is a characteristic of the young. I once had blond hair. Now it is a quite dark brown. Fair skin can also grow darker with age.
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shuchi
Registered User
(7/23/03 9:41 am)
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youth/age
Mary, it's interesting that you have raised the youth/age question - many cosmetics advertisements also play on this opposition and define beauty as something *naturally* associated with youth. In the present-day fairy-tale the ageing princess (also the prince, I guess) is transformed into a timeless beauty, courtesy anti-wrinkle products.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 10:13 am)
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Scientific studies
Nancy Etcoff, of Harvard Medical School, in her book "Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty", pages 104 to 106, notes that a preference for fair women is universal, and has been documented in nearly every society including ancient India, Egypt, Crete and Japan. She then presents the following theories:
1) Pale skin is a sign of youth and may be a deterrent to aggression;
2) The difference between skin color in men and women are a result of hormone differences, and women are also paler during periods of fertility;
3) Relatedly, women are generally paler prior to their first pregnancy (she doesn't directly say this, but we can infer indicating "availability" to the man?);
4) "Light skin is a more transparent window [better indicator of] to health, age, and sexual interest than darker skin."
5) With respect to some multi-racial societies, there may be an added influence of social status favoring light skinned people.
Interestingly, Dr. Etcoff notes that sun exposure has little to do with the preference for lighter skin in women since it applies to nonexposed body parts and in societies where men and women had equal sun exposure. She also notes that while pale men may be considered fair, they are generally considered overly feminine.
Just thought I would pass this along. Her book is full of references to specific studies if you are interested in more detail.
Jess
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Nisha
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 10:48 am)
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Possible connection to Colonization?
This is a fascinating topic since it is something I have noticed in many cultures, including my own.
I wonder if the idea of fair being better in many of the cultures mentioned were documented pre-colonization or post. It seems quite probably that the imposition of imperial concepts and the making of ethnic cultures as the dark, uncivilized, exotic, dangerous 'other' seeped into those cultures at large.
Hence, the ideas even today that any lighter skin colour is better, superior in some way?
Any thoughts?
Nisha
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shuchi
Registered User
(7/23/03 11:59 am)
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standards of beauty
thanks Jess, the info on scientific analysis of beauty is very useful. I have been trying to figure out how the notion of beauty has developed. It's true that attempts to formulate standards of beauty are part of every culture, and many societies share this fondness for light skin. However, as Nisha suggests, and as perhaps Dr Etcoff's point on multi-racial societies seems to suggest, the power relations that obtain between the different races in a society may contribute towards the determination of an ideal.
If we are to talk of the connection to colonialisation though, should we, in the context of ancient India, also include the interaction between the Indo-Europeans and the Dravidians? The portrayal of monsters as dark and frightening in Indian mythology and epics then maybe related to the way the Indo-European colonisers perceived the ethnic population.
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Blackwolf
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 6:31 pm)
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Fair = Obsession with Youth?
Mary's post has me thinking more...
Is it because fair-skinnedness (now, is that a word too?) is equated or tantamount to youth or the obsession with being young and beautiful?
Furthermore, does fair-skinnedness equate availability (for young virgins) or accessibility?
Quite interesting in that the Virgin Mary has been portrayed in medieval illustrations as fair-skinned and blonde-haired, even though she was also seen holding the baby Jesus.
More thoughts,
Blackwolf
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Jess
Unregistered User
(7/23/03 7:46 pm)
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Virgin Mary - dark monsters
Regarding the VM, it is not really surprising when one considers that Italian women of the period would bleach their hair with lemon juice to make it more blonde. Interestingly, fair hair is not seen as nearly as important as fair skin. Etcoff notes that blonde hair is generally considered an indication of fairer skin and not the other way around. Hence, we get Snow White whose ebony hair would offset her snow white skin.
Regarding dark monsters, I wonder if we consider paleness a feminine characteristic, perhaps darkness is masculine. I wonder further if monsters are generally exagerated male characters (even ogresses are covered with body hair) since they tend to be aggressive and often physically imposing. This would make the male protaganist who defeats the monster more masculine. This might also explain why it is acceptable to have men fight female monsters as we discussed in an earlier thread.
Still musing...
Jess
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Mary
Unregistered User
(7/24/03 5:59 am)
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Youth and beauty
Relatedly, women are generally paler prior to their first pregnancy (she doesn't directly say this, but we can infer indicating "availability" to the man?);
One, it tends to show that she is young. She is more likely to be fertile, and has more fertile years ahead of her.
Two, not having had another man's child before a man hooks up with her is an indicator of whether she might have another man's child afterwards. Not infalliable, but something.
Three, yeah, probably it helps shows she's not attached at the moment.
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Blackwolf
Unregistered User
(7/25/03 6:42 am)
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Ugliness = Madness?
Slight off-track here...
I wonder if "monstrosity" is also equated to "madness" too. I did an essay once on the link between "monstrosity" and "madness/insanity"- whereby the mentally ill were seen as animals or monsters in history, looked up in horrid institutions and caged like beasts.
The interesting thing, if I can recall, is that illustrations depicting the mentally ill included mostly male inmates of the institutions. No doubt that there were female inmates but the illustrations I have seen were mostly male.
More thoughts again from me,
Blackwolf
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Nalo
Registered User
(7/26/03 11:07 am)
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Re: Ugliness = Madness?
Shuchi said: "If we are to talk of the connection to colonialisation though, should we, in the context of ancient India, also include the interaction between the Indo-Europeans and the Dravidians? The portrayal of monsters as dark and frightening in Indian mythology and epics then maybe related to the way the Indo-European colonisers perceived the ethnic population."
NH: I have a friend, a specialist in world religions, a Hindu priest in training and himself South Indian (Dravidian), who says exactly that. I don't know the specifics of it, but he says that many of the gods that are portrayed as blue-skinned in Hindu religion were originally Dravidian. The colonising (Aryans, yeah?) spoke of the darker Dravidians as being uglier than they were, and my friend says that making their gods blue was a way of coding their dark skin in a manner that still made them acceptable as gods. Ravenna, the "monster" who captures Sita, is blue, isn't he? And comes from an island kingdom which might well be Sri Lanka?
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Mary
Unregistered User
(7/26/03 5:40 pm)
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blond vs. fair
Interestingly, fair hair is not seen as nearly as important as fair skin.
This gets complicated. In medieval illuminated books, we get depictations of the Queen of Sheba based on the description in the Song of Solomon: "I am black but beautiful." So, she is black (ink black) but because beautiful, blond, and they did the hair in gold leaf. The effect is -- interesting.
On the other hand, since blond hair can be achieved with dyes, or wigs, it can override the implication of "young, therefore innocent" with the implication of "dyed, therefore looking for men, therefore a floozie." In Regency England, books offered dyes for the unfortunate blonde to turn her hair black.
Joanna Pitman's On Blondes has some stuff for anyone who finds this interesting
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