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Author
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Comment
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Helen
Registered User
(12/8/02 9:57:23 pm)
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We say "fairy tale," they say ... (etymological qu
Dear All:
I'm exploring the psychological attitudes reflected in the etymological backgrounds of the terms used to designate stories concerning the fantastic in different cultures, and I was hoping that you might have some suggestions. In English, we derive the phrase "fairy tales" from the French "contes des fees," suggesting that Western Europeans feel a certain remove from the realm of the fantastic (as can be seen in the fact that the term "fairy tale" can be used colloquially to indicate an untruth, unlikelihood, or falsehood). The German "marchen" is more descriptive ("tales of wonder") and fairly general, indicating neither distance nor nearness, though encapsulating the possibility of both. In Russian, the term "skazki," meaning simply "story," bears no real implication of unreality or separation from the mundane world (a fact which I find particularly fascinating in light of the fact that the first recorded Russian folk tale - told at the Vatican during the 16th century - was put forth as a historical event). Are any of you familiar with other terms for such stories that might shed some light on other cultural attitudes towards the genre? Thanks for your help!
Best,
Helen
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(12/9/02 4:03:22 am)
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More
The Germans also say "hausmarchen", meaning household tales, giving it a cosier, closer feel.
Jane
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Helen
Registered User
(12/9/02 7:04:20 am)
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Intensifiers ...
Dear Jane:
Ooh, good point, thank you! Although, I've wondered about one thing there ... (I'm studying German now, so I ought to *know* this, but it never hurts to clarify) ... if the root word means "tales of wonder," would the qualifying words ("kinder" or "hause") change that basic meaning somehow, or does it become, instead, simply, a more specific type of wonder-tale (i.e., "children's tales (of wonder)," "household tales (of wonder)," etc.)? Are they are still inherently wonder-tales, but ones that fall within a specific precinct? That's more or less how it works in Russian ... if one wants to be very specific, the term "volsheb'naya skazka" means "a tale of magic," but the basic word possesses the necessary implications. I don't want to generalize on that basis ... again, thanks!
Best,
Helen
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Lotti
Unregistered User
(12/9/02 2:13:51 pm)
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German: "Mär"
Dear Helen,
the word Märchen in German stems from the medieval word Mär or Märe, which simply meant tale, news, or intelligence (the word somehow survived in a popular Christmas song, "Vom Himmel hoch, da komm ich her, ich bring Euch gute, neue Mär"= I come from heaven up high to bring you new and good tidings). As "-chen" is a diminutive, I suppose it was at first more "a little tale" than a "tale of wonder", which it is today and also was at the time of the Grimms, I suppose. Little not only in length but also in content as opposed to a mythic story of epic proportions (and of small spirits rather than gods). - As to combining it with Kinder or Haus (and this is speculation on my part) it might have been kind of a "marketing catch phrase" as the Grimms were scholars and wrote papers for the university to indicate that their collection was meant not as a scientific paper but as a "household item". - But it does indeed make it more specific than Märchen alone with stressing it to be meant for children and use within the family. Maybe also indicating that it was not the original tales, but edited (censored) for use in the nursery. -
As for the fact that the English and French name includes the "fairies", I'd like to add that the German tales do not include fairies as a rule. Again, this is speculation on my part, but our fairy tale characters with supernatural powers dating back to pagan times tend to be more of Germanic than Celtic tradition. I am thinking of not only of the witches, but mainly Frau Holle (Mother Holle) who has very strong Germanic roots. Interesting enough, the tales way before Grimm give her a dark nature with occasional friendlyness, whereas in Grimms she is friendly and does not punish unless provoked. - Ah yes. What does that have to do with your question? Nothing, sorry! I had better stop before straying completely off topic...
One last thought, though: in current German, Märchen can be used as a synonym for lie: "Erzähl mir keine Märchen!" means "Don't tell me lies!". A sad state of affairs for the Märchen...
Viele Grüße! Lotti
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Lotti
Unregistered User
(12/9/02 2:22:17 pm)
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Oh my, the spellcheck has butchered my "Umlaute"!
ok, this is the spelling without using any "Umlaute", which the spellcheck seems to find offensive: ;-)
Maer, Maerchen, "Erzaehl mir keine Maerchen" and, last but not least: Viele Gruesse!
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(12/9/02 10:03:29 pm)
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Tolkien re "stories about ... Faerie"
I think the initial post spoke of "realm of the fantastic" and "separation from the mundane world." That fits with what Tolkien said in "On Fairy-Stories."
"... fairy-stories are not in normal English usage stories _about_ fairies or elves, but stories about Fairy, that is _Faerie_, the realm or state in which fairies have their being."
_The Tolkien Reader_, page 9
Rosemary
Edited by: Rosemary Lake at: 12/9/02 10:08:39 pm
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cpe
Unregistered User
(12/10/02 12:38:05 am)
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german and spanish
Dear lotti; that was fascinating. thank you for the overview.
Dear helen: In mexican spanish from morelia and michuacan, we use the word cuento, which is oft used interchangeably to mean 'tale' or 'folktale' but can also mean lie, as in 'dont lie to me.' Telling a 'story,' as in in english, can mean telling a tale or telling a falsehood.
just my two cent's worth lat at night.
con cariño
cpe
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Zanobia
Unregistered User
(12/10/02 1:34:17 am)
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fairy tales
What exactly do you mean by Fairy Tales? I just want to know in order to differentiate it from other literature that also includes elements of fantasy. Or does having the marvelous emmediately make the account a Fairy Tale?
In the Arab world, or rather, in Muslim history pre-European Renaissance, many histortians/geographers wrote books entitled Aja-ib Wa Ghara-ib, (Marvels and Strange Things is the best I can translate it to). These stories included citations and often drawings of giant birds with human heads, or winged horses, or sea-creatures that are half man half octopus. Interestingly, these fantastic creatures are rarely depicted as harmful or scary. Just usually gigantic. The above mentioned bird often carries away the portagonist into safer grounds when he's in trouble. Or sometimes its just a fantasy magic carpet ride type of thing.
On a historic note, one of these tales (dated to the 14th C. I think.) is the first to depict an actual drawing of a kangaroo though mistakenly identifies it as a rhinoserous.
If this interests you, try finding translations of books written by Kazwini (alternate spelling Qazwini). I'll find you more information if you need it.
Z.
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Helen
Registered User
(12/11/02 6:58:50 am)
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Thank you!
Dear Lotti, Rosemary, cpe, Zanobia:
Thank you so much for helping! Lotti, your explanation of the etymology behind the term was enormously helpful (also led me to zaubemarchen - supernatural tales of the marvelous, is that right?) and sent me off on a whole new train of thought about all of those wonderful - though I'm going back to the older meaning of inspiring awe rather than the colloquial meaning of worthy of admiration, necessarily - old women who live in the woods. Frau Holle, Baba Yaga, the witch from Hansel and Gretel (who seems rather like an amalgamation of the two, being German and following B.Y.'s dietary habits). Rosemary, the J.R.R. Tolkien quote is exactly what started me off on this train of thought in the first place! Great minds think alike, and thank you for the link. cpe, I really appreciate your explanation of "cuento" ... do you think that the interchangeable meanings of the English and Spanish meanings are cases of parallel evolution, or do you think that one influenced the other? I definitely need to look into this ... (wonder what the Italian and Portuguese are, hm). And Zanobia, I suppose that what I mean by fairy tale *is* pretty much in the quote by Tolkien that Rosemary posted above ... those tales that bear the aura of enchantment, for reason of their subject matter and their language, working in conjunction (I'm including those stories, known in Russian as bytovye skazki, which might not necessarily contain overt fantastic elements, but which are still told in the formulaic language of the fairy tale ... folkloric anecdotes might be the best translation?). The Aja-ib Wa Ghara-ib sound exactly like what I have in mind. If you do know of any good translations of either original tales or scholarly texts, I'd be very grateful. (I've been leery of bad translations since reading the Guterman translation of Afanasyev.) Again, thank you all!
Best,
Helen
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(12/11/02 11:20:27 am)
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quote
There's always the wonderful quote by Pete Seegar about folk songs. "They're called folk songs cause the folk sing 'em."
Jane
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(12/11/02 10:06:02 pm)
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Re: Thank you!
You're welcome. :-)
I haven't finished re-reading "On Fairy-Stories." When Tolkien gets to what constitutes a 'fairy-story', vs a beast-fable etc, I begin liking Luthi's and even Propp's ideas better. Tolkien defines his fairy-story mostly by its content, and I won't try to summarize. Luthi looked at form and some formal elements (I love him!) and Propp of course at form, structure.
Tolkien's 'story of fairyland' fits with some bits in Baum's Oz books. Baum often says Oz is _a_ 'fairyland', meaning it is ruled by Ozma, a fairy. That would fit with the cabinet des fees sort of fairy who 'ruled that whole country.' I wonder how much research Baum did....
Rosemary
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(12/12/02 8:24:19 am)
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ethnogenres & terms
The "sense of wonder" aspect of the Old World traditions mentioned is interesting to ponder. FWIW, here's a view from another tradition, where what is seen as true history and what we would call the fantastic largely overlap, and there is no strong cultural tradition of fictive narratives. (This is taken from the intro to my recent translation for the anthology VOICES FROM FOUR DIRECTIONS, Brian Swann ed.):
"While myth and poetry have received the lion?s share of the attention granted to Native American oral literature, on the north Pacific coast, at least, non-mythic narratives are also an important part of indigenous literary traditions. Among the Kwakwaka?wakw of coastal British Columbia (also known as the "Kwakiutl"), true narratives are traditionally divided into a sequence of four categories that together span the history of the world. Two of these categories belong to the era of myth, two to the human, "secular" era that followed. The secular-age categories are k?ayul, which one source translates as "tale[s] about the forefathers," and k?ayola, the personal experiences of living people.
"Myths tell of world creation and transformation; many of the secular-era stories focus on human morality, on appropriate behavior, and even, it might be said, on human psychology. These narratives not infrequently contain material that would seem fantastic or magical to a Western audience, but they were all nevertheless considered to have factual accuracy, to be 'historical.'
"The story translated here, "Giver," is a k?ayul, a traditional narrative set in the human era but before the memories of living people. We do not know a great deal about finer-grained divisions of the k?ayul category, although some definitely existed. K?ayul includes what could be called folktales, recitations listing the generations of chiefly succession, the mourning "cry songs," and more. There is some evidence ... [for] a sub-genre of saga-like tales..."
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Kerrie
Moderator
(12/12/02 12:00:03 pm)
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Italian... and Portuguese... and a bit o' Gaelic...
Tale: la favola
Fairy tale: la favola di fata
Story: la storia
History: la storia
Song: la canzone
I sing: Canto (as in Dante's La Commedia chapters, called Cantos)
Folklore: il folclore
Folk tale: la favola
Lore: la scienza
Tale: o conto
Fairy tale: o conto de fada
Story: o relato
History: a história
Song: a canção
I sing: Canto
Folklore: o folclore
Folk tale: o conto de povo
Folk: o povo
At least according to an on-line translator:
www.freetranslation.com/
Remembering my Italian, "povero" means "poor"- I wonder if that is what is meant by "o povo" in Portuguese, "the poor"?
Not sure where my dictionaries are. Here's a lovely one for Gaelic:
www.ceantar.org/Dicts/search.html
Just looking at the listing (one of many for "tale") for this word:
skeeal [f] yarn, submission, tidings, story, anecdote, advice, report, legend, tale, rumour, narrative, history, news, profile,
shows that it really depends on the culture and it's view of stories. Yarn, history, report, legend can all be summed up with one word.
This entry shows the relationship with marchen:
mór
great, Irish mór, Old Irish mór, már, Welsh mawr, Old Welsh, Cornish maur, Breton meur, Gaulish -mârós; Greek @G-mwros, great, famed ( @Ge@'ghesí-mwros) in spear-throw; Gothic -mêrs, famed, mêrian, proclaim, Old High German mâri, famed, -mar in Germanic names German märchen, a tale, Norse m@oerr, famous; Slavonic -meru (Vladimir, etc.); Latin merus, English mere. A shorter form of the stem (*mâro-) appears in mò, greater (mâ), q.v.
(Note: several of the words listed have links to their own definitions.)
Here's a link for other language dictionaries:
www.worldlingo.com/resour...aries.html
Oooo, this is so much fun!
Sugarplum dreams,
Kerrie
Edited by: Kerrie at: 12/13/02 7:12:31 am
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Kerrie
Moderator
(12/17/02 11:30:22 am)
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Contos, cantos, contes, cuento, etc...
I was just reflecting on the similarity between the the words mentioned above. In Italian, "cantare" means "to sing"- perhaps all these versions of "tale" refer to song? A song is a short tale, in a way. I'm not sure how to form my thoughts on this one- am I making sense?
Sugarplum dreams,
Kerrie
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Nalo
Registered User
(12/18/02 8:34:55 am)
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Re: Contos, cantos, contes, cuento, etc...
In the English-speaking Caribbean, it's "nancy stories," which is a derivative of "Anansi" stories; Anansi being the trickster/wise fool figure who's sometimes a man, sometimes a spider, sometimes a weird amalgam of both (in the Caribbean, anyway. In West Africa, he's a god). I think they're called nancy stories because they're so often stories about speaking animals: Brer Nancy (Anansi), Brer Tiger, etc. The animals--quite consciously, it seems to me--are kind of archetypical, in that they represent certain traits. There's not really a question of feeling close to or distanced from the world of the stories, because they're understood to be representative of types of people. So for me, nancy stories have always had a humorous air of winking at the audience, as though the storyteller's saying, "we all know people like this, but let's not name any names."
But there's another class of stories that's less benign, more scary. I don't think there's a name for them, though I think I have heard them called simply, 'scary stories.' They're the ones with creatures like the La Diablesse (devil woman), the Rolling Calf (who, near as I can tell, is a phouka (sp?) exported from the north), the Lagahoo (loup-garou; werewolf. Or, in Trinidad, the were-donkey), and the Soucouyant (blood-sucker). Many of these creatures can be mistaken for human, up until the moment they reveal their true natures and attack you. Some of them are deadly, but some of them don't attack at all. I don't think I've ever read a tale in which the Lagahoo or the La Diablesse actually hurts anyone. It's the fact of their very existence that seems to be the most terrifying, because it's evidence that there is a supernatural world; one that seems particularly bent on deceiving human beings. With those stories, there's definitely a deep core of belief/fear that they might be true. Sometimes people won't read my fiction that draws on Caribbean folklore because they fear it'll bring up all the old terror of the evil beings who come out at night to prey on humans.
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(12/18/02 11:00:19 am)
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Re: Contos, cantos, contes, cuento, etc...
Very interesting creatures there, Nalo, thanks for sharing them (yes, the rolling calf figure does sound phooka-ish). I guess I don't blame those readers for being a little hesitant; stories have power.
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(1/9/03 11:12:46 am)
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logos, muthos, ainos, etc
On the original question, it might be worthwhile reading J. A. K. Thomson's THE ART OF THE LOGOS, by Unwin, London, 1935.
He focuses on Herodotus and makes quite a point of the various terms used for what we call legend, marchen, etc. Mostly he is looking at style and structure of the 'marchen' type of that period.
Rosemary
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