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Author
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Comment
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bielie
Unregistered User
(11/28/02 2:04:20 pm)
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In defense of Belle
Hi Helen and Heidi
I would like to mention two things:
1) The Beast is an abuser, I agree on that, but I definitely disagree that this is an abusive relationship. For an abusive relationship you need an abuser and a victim. Belle is not a victim. She refuses to be abused. The Beast tells her to come down to dinner, she refuses. She basically tells him to go to hell. He tells her not to go to the west wing, she disobeys. He roars at her, and she refuses to stay and be abused. She saddles her horse and rides into the woods. Afterwards when he blames her for what happened, instead of taking the blame like a passive, abused wife, she blames him right back. She makes him take responsibility for his actions.
She is not intimidated by him. She breaks her vow to stay in his house (a marriage vow?) when he becomes violent.
In fact, she is a role model for people who are in relationships with potential abusers: Do not be a victim. Do not allow yourself to be abused. Make the abuser take responsibilty for what his actons. (In other words, do not fall for the "You made me do it, it is your fault" crap.) Do not stay on when the line is crossed.
2) People, as far as as our experience tells us, do not change. Helen and Heidi, on that point you are both right. The most dangerous trap for any woman is to believe that she can change an abusive man.
Yet our experience is not what stories are about. If empirical evidence tells us that brooms don't fly, that does not make stories about schoolboys flying on brooms taboo. I remember that parents were afraid that children would jump off buildings after the first Superman movie came out, but surprise surprise, it did not happen.
What makes a story memorable is not the action or the mystery, but the characters, and more importantly, how they change. Ever met a miser who became generous? I bet not, yet Scrooge's journey from being mean to being generous makes him one of the the most memorable characters of English literature.
Stories enchant us because they deal with things that we as humans relate to on a very primordeal level. Love, hate, betrayal, grace, redemption.
And there is always the hope that we can be better than we know we are, that somehow we may be redeemed like Scrooge or Darth Vader. Or the Beast.
Whether or not brooms or Superman can fly is not the question. We love stories about flying because of the "What if..." What if I could really fly?
What if I could receive grace? What if my love could redeem someone else?
In our identification with the hero, whether he is the redeemer or the redeemed, we find redemption.
On a more personal level, I do believe in redeeming grace that can change people, but that is not something to discuss on this forum.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(11/28/02 7:07:14 pm)
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Re: Disney
A little off-thread, but I suppose it might be relevant anyway. When we talk about fairy tales, folklore, and Disney, the subject of Pochahontes never comes up, I suspect because it is so loosely based upon reality rather than a recorded story. Nevertheless, the Disney version mixes folklore about Pochahontas and a Romeo and Juliet story together and comes up with.....nothing!
If one looks at how stories are created, there is in fact a legend surrounding Pochahontas which probably exaggerates her importance (although perhaps not) and makes her a larger than life figure. The lesson that should have been taught is that a very young person has the ability to make a big difference, which can then be backed up at least partly by actual history. Instead we get a mixed up story about what? love? tolerance? I am not sure, but it is not about a strong young girl, like the legend, like history.
Interestingly, Pochohontas lived not long before many of the French salon tales were being written (certainly less than a century). I wonder what influence her legend may have had on women writing stories about strong young European princesses. So sad Disney keeps mixing up the message.
Oops, I guess I really went OT this time. This is becoming a bad habit. Sorry.
Jess
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cpe
Unregistered User
(11/28/02 9:47:15 pm)
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indians and pocahantas
just two cen'ts worth from a different perspective; amidst the storm of criticism of disney's Pocahantas from various directions, Russell Means, bodacious warrior type, one of the fierce founders of A.I.M., American Indian Movement that has ripped every part of EuroAmerican culture it can lay hands on, claimed Pocahantas film by Disney was one of the greatest things that had ever happened to indians.
also, different ethnic heritages within the United States, have perspectives on the value of Disney's films and stories that are not often heard also.
all best
cpe
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 3:14:11 am)
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Abuser/victim
I want to suggest that the straight-to-video Disney stories about Beauty and the Beast really show off Belle as victim. In it Belle cautions the teapot et all to be quiet and not to wake Beast who is having a bad day. She hides a little bird from him because he's threatened to kill it. She tiptoes around, to let the Master calm down. She STAYS, for God's sake!
cpe: Means LIKED Pocohantas? That's. . .astonishing.
Jane
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bielie
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 4:19:33 am)
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Belle
Hi Jane
Sorry, I only saw the original B&B so I can't comment. Sad thing if you're right.
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cpe
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 9:14:24 am)
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indians and Disney
Jane wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>cpe: Means LIKED Pocohantas? That's. . .astonishing.>>>
Yes. Some were surprised, but then you also can appreciate this other point of view and .... There are so MANY reasons/ways/inspirations/motives for people to produce stories the way they do or to prompt them to appear as they do.
For some to many indians, Pocahantas was one of the first postitive portrayals of an indian in animated film. It was one of the only protagonists ever to not be the same old dreck: "you cowboy, me dead /dirty/betraying indian." It was an animated film in which indian children would see a positive portrayal of indians. I can't speak for Russell (Russell does that just fine without help from anyone--grin) but those were the lines along which the idea was put forth. Russell was also an advisor on the film Pocahantas as I recall and may have even been one of the voices.
( You might recall that R. also played in "the late 20th century film" Last of the Mohicans which had many brutal episodes.) (Jane, as one abuelita to another zaidy, yesterday I heard a television person call a house built in the 1950s, "a mid-centry house." What's that thumping sound I'm hearing? Must be the sound of time moving on... grin.)
con cariņo,
cpe
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cpe
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 9:19:21 am)
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back to meghan
I am wondering if we answered your question brought by a butterfly by a barrage of ocean? I hope your paper is coming along well and that you will quote from all these fabulous and famous people who have replied. Just my two cent's worth, but Goodness, what a beautiful trove of information they have put here. I think I am going to start another string, thread, line, whatever you're supposed to call it on Disney...
Thanks for asking the question Meghan, it was a really good one.
con cariņo,
cpe
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Jess
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 9:58:08 am)
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Back to original question
Meghan,
My comments re: Pocahontas (sp?) were as off-thread as they may appear, if one looks at how culture affects FOLKLORE (as opposed to fairytales) and vice versa, and how they are presented/altered for children.
Cpe-
I would love to discuss this legend in another thread somewhere. She (P) was always something of a heroine of mine - being an independent, open-minded person, with a true sense of identity, and probably one with a bit of a sense of humor. My point was just that for whatever reason, Disney changed the "child stands up for justice and tolerance" story line to a love story. Wouldn't R have been even more pleased if the story was about a mere child acting for justice, instead of a more mature woman acting out of love? What benefit to CHILDREN was there in changing that story and how did CULTURE affect its telling?
Jess
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cpe
Unregistered User
(11/29/02 10:15:15 am)
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another thread is good I think
Dear Jess, that's a good diea; go ahead and start another thread about your topic and thank you, we can all discuss it there. I think your questions are good ones, and, just my two cent's worth, show a deep desire for the world to be mended in certain ways. To me, and to many others, no small thing. Neither such a soul, nor the world.
con cariņo,
cpe
p.s. I don't know how to spell Pocahontas either. I would, however, Dear Jess, be the LAST one to ask (grin). I am still working on 'dilema' and 'bureacrat' and 'guarantee'...oh, and also 'rhythym,' and about two thousand others.
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(11/29/02 11:28:46 am)
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Pocohantas
Jane wrote >>>>>>>>>>>>cpe: Means LIKED Pocohantas? That's. . .astonishing.>>>
and cpe wrote>>>>>Yes. Some were surprised, but then you also can appreciate this other point of view and .... There are so MANY reasons/ways/inspirations/motives for people to produce stories the way they do or to prompt them to appear as they do.
JB: I don't want to suggest the following applies to Russell Means or any other particular individual, but I have noticed that there are differences in attitudes towards women among different Native American groups, and while I have encountered some very strong women from the Plains cultures, there's perhaps a bit more... male chauvinism... there. Always dangerous to generalize, but...
I was once sitting in a bar with a group of northwest coast Native artists, all but one male and she an attractive woman about 30 or 35, and several other white people. The male artists did ALL the talking until my friend, a retiring librarian, made a somewhat negative comment about her own age. The woman artist spoke for the first time: "In our culture, women are just coming into their prime at age 60." (My friend said, "I know, my dear, but I'm not a member of your culture). But there is a tradition there of powerful women traders and leaders that goes back to before contact and you see it continued today. Usually post-menopausal -- women of child-bearing years usually stay in the background -- but not always. (There are also a set of quasi-historical legends about female inventors which have always fascinated me: a woman who found a meteorite and hammered iron weapons out of it; a girl who invented a new kind of fish trap based on a dream; a girl who dreamed how to make the first of a very difficult kind of textile; another young teenage girl who, upon seeing an example of this textile, took it apart and figured out how it was made.)
I've heard of some activists from other cultures complaining about NWC women and how they should stay in their place. (Which, from their cultural standpoint, they are.) So all of this is to say that Disney's Pocohantas might look quite different to one Indian observer than to another... just as for those of the dominant culture.
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EdensEcho
Registered User
(11/29/02 7:33:47 pm)
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Re: Pocohantas
I'm so glad to have found such an intelligent group of people! *grins* I really mean it. You have offered some truly wonderful incite, that has given me a different perspective.
Although I refuse to let anything ruin Beauty and the Beast for
me. I do see where those of you who see it as a portrayal of an
abusive relationship, however, Belle is still quite a step ahead
for a Disney heroine. Brown hair, and brown eyes,
and she was a bookworm to boot.
I will be
feistyeven
with my
sugar spun wings
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sionlee
Unregistered User
(12/1/02 12:00:48 am)
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The Faithful Gardener
I stumbled across this site googling for stuff about the handless maiden. I've enjoyed reading the discourse so far & hope to stick around and enjoy more, but I have to take the risk of sounding embarrassingly "fan" long enough to say that I treasure this wee book.
My sister gave it to me when I was going through a bloody awful period a few years ago, incapable of writing or painting the sort of "mythologising of experience" I usually use as a healing tool, and this story was almost like a blessing, permission to wait (& trust: ooh, hard!) rather than try to force more growth from too-wounded (largely self-scorched) soil. And reassurance that I wasn't really "dead" just because I couldn't write or paint or sculpt right then.
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cpe
Unregistered User
(12/1/02 9:11:53 pm)
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The Faithful Gardener book
dear Sionlee, it heartens to know when a work is able to assist a creative soul like yourself. That is just the worst isn't it, scorched earth and unable to create for a while. Believe me, any worth their salt have had those times. I am glad that that hard time is now in the past for you. (I liked the woodcut cover of the book; the illustration of the tree fully in bloom and growing from the spilt blood of other trees that had been cut down. It was done by a gifted woman from the pacific northwest.)
con cariņo,
cpe
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swood
Unregistered User
(12/2/02 8:53:49 am)
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Beast's Transformation
My mother also hates Beauty & the Beast for the reason that she feels it encourages women to believe they can change an abusive relationship. However, the tale is also very close to me for reasons I'm not sure I even understand.
I found myself explaining one day that the Beast's transformation is not due to Beauty's influence, but due to his own discovery of the ability to love. She does not change him. He changes himself. Robin McKinley's Beauty really touches on this self-transformation, as the heroine herself is transformed from someone who sees herself as plain and unattractive, to someone who can see herself for the beautiful creature she has become.
Nevertheless, I don't think we can single out just Beauty & the Beast as carrying this difficult theme of transformation. How do we deal with Eros & Psyche, or East of the Sun, West of the Moon, the Little Mermaid, or The Snow Queen without dealing with the issues of abandonment and self-sacrifice that the tales contain? Women in many fairytales, however wise or brave, suffer.
Sarah
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Otherworld
Registered User
(1/9/03 6:47:39 pm)
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Re: Disney ....
Fasinating topic
just read through it !!
but I would like to suggest you listen to June Tabors version of "Beauty and the Beast: an anniversary".... on tobic records/cd's
it gives no answers but offers an interesting post script,
on the subjuct of "Beaty and the Beast"...Disney... well...it's well documented he was a sexist, and a racist. Of course he layered this on to HIS-STORYS. there was some good scripts and animation over the years but can we ignore his bigotry?
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(1/10/03 1:48:29 am)
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small addendum
June Tabor's version of Beauty and the Beast: An Anniversary--was written by me. Thanks.
Jane
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(1/10/03 10:45:59 pm)
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Grimm and Calvino
[[[[ If I recall correctly, they were more bowdlerized in Germany in the 18th century than in many other countries, and that was directly attributable to what was considered appropriate for the children to know.
Greg ]]]]]
There's a great contrast between Grimms' stories (and most of Lang's), and Calvino's ITALIAN FOLKTALES compiled c. 1950. Calvino's heroines are confident, brash, usually successful, his stories often bawdy. He follows his originals carefully, sometimes combining versions, tho sometimes cuts a bit of offense. I don't know what the Grimms' originals were like.
It would be fun to take a few Italian stories in Lang and follow them to Lang's sources (such as Crane's ITALIAN POPULAR TALES, 1885) and then back to a version in some scholarly source that that Crane and Calvino both worked from.
Little Red Riding Hood would be a good poster child for this, if
she hasn't been done already by Zipes among others. The girl outwits
an ogre in Calvino, taken from an old Italian original rather like
the old French version at www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html#italy
Rosemary
www.rosemarylake.com
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EdensEcho
Registered User
(1/12/03 11:50:29 am)
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Re: Grimm and Calvino
Perrault bastardized just about every single fairy tale he put in
his collection.
Here I am
dancing barefoot in the starseven
while I'm
blindfolded
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(1/12/03 7:40:47 pm)
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Rapunzel
I totally agree with you there. In an edition by Paul O' Zelinsky
the afterword states that Mother Gothel/Dame Gothel finds out that
Rapuzel has been seeing a prince when she is complaining that her
dress is becoming too tight(Rapunzel is pregnant) not a careless
slip of the tongue as is what happens in most versions that children
hear about nowadays. As far as feminism, I am a male and I understand
that Rapunzel is being ruled out as somewhat of a helpless creature
who is depending on a prince to save her, also, her so called slip
of the tongue supports this idea by seeing her as somewhat , hate
to say it, "Ditzy". As far as Disney goes, I love the
movies as they are what I have grown up with but also, I read the
original stories which is why the Disney versions don't bother me
that much. I didn't think much about it until recently. The reason
for these drastic changes in the stories is quite simply, I feel,
society. It is ashame that, no offense to Harry Potter fans out
there, that children aren't growing up with the stories that parents
and teachers have told for generations. The Classic tales that originally
teach us about morals and kids don't seem to be getting the same
information from stories like Harry Potter, especially when you
see signs out in front of stores advertising the new Bertie Bott
jelly beans from Harry Potter that taste like among other things,
boogers or the latest action figure. I think I have said my piece.
Interesting how I can change topics in mid paragraph. : )
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MarkS
Unregistered User
(1/23/03 8:38:34 pm)
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Don't know if I would agree with that.
In bookstores I see hundreds of traditional fairy tales in print. If anything , Potter has brought to light not only traditional tales, but brought back into print classic children's fantasy authors like Dianne Wynne Jones and Roald Dahl, to name two of many. I'm sure there are authors here reaping the benefit of the phenomena as well. This has come up before, and I am no Harry Potter flag waver - I enjoy the books but they aren't the geatest thing since sliced bread - but fair is fair.
RE: Russell Means in Last of the Mohicans, one of the best historical fiction films ever made (IMHO but this thought is shared by many history buffs); of course it is brutal. It was a brutal time. Anyone who thinks the Indians were peace loving victims is preaching revisionist history. As a people they were total victims, and badly used by us, but as tribes and individuals they were just as violent as we were because they are human beings, all of whom are violent, racist, and nasty to some extent or other. To elevate them to a noble savage level is just as wrong minded as to consider them stupid savages, and all white men good, pure, and Godly.
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