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Author
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Comment
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GailS
Unregistered User
(1/31/03 2:54:02 pm)
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Does anyone know the origins of counting crows rhymes?
Does anyone know the origins of the counting crows/ravens/magpies rhymes? I have found the following variations, but have been unable to locate any information about their origins. I assume they stem from the same source, given the similarity of the subject matter.
One for sorrow
Two for mirth
Three for a wedding
Four for a birth
Five for silver
Six for gold
Seven of a secret not to be told
Eight for heaven
Nine for hell
And ten for the devil's own self.
One for sorrow
Two for joy
Three for a girl
Four for a boy
Five for silver
Six for gold
Seven for a secret never to be told.
One for sorrow
Two for mirth
Three for a wedding
Four for birth
Five for rich
Six for poor
Seven for a witch
I can tell you no more.
Thanks,
Gail
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tlchang37
Registered User
(1/31/03 11:40:34 pm)
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Re: Does anyone know the origins of counting crows rhymes?
I have a lovely picture book called "Crows" illustrated by Heidi Holder (pub. by Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Copyright date 1987). She has 12 verses included in it, based on the meanings/superstitions she had learned from her grandfather and other research. She also includes a lot of symbolic flowers and objects - complete with a key to decipher - to supplement the 'bare bones' of the rhyme. It doesn't sound like she ever found the origin either - other than it probably originated in England and Scotland with magpies, and was shifted to crows once it came to North America - where crows greatly outnumber magpies.
Not much help, but lovely to look at.
Good luck,
Tara
Edited by: tlchang37 at: 1/31/03 11:43:41 pm
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bielie
Registered User
(2/2/03 11:34:36 am)
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Blackbirds
Sing a song of sixpence
A pocket full of rye
Four and twenty blackbirds
Baked in a pie...
Edited by: bielie at: 2/2/03 11:36:38 am
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Elizabeth
Unregistered User
(2/3/03 8:31:04 am)
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Mother Goose
When the pie was opened
The birds began to sing,
Oh what a mighty dish
To set before the king.
Liz
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Jess
Unregistered User
(2/3/03 11:41:01 am)
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Live bird pie
According to Reay Tannahill's "Food in History", the late midieval (early Rennaisance) table included a pastry filled with live birds. The book has a recipe from the 1500's (see page 187) and suggests that the practice may have had earlier origins. The pie was mostly for show, when pie was cut the birds flew out, but a smaller pie was also prepared and served to the guests.
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(2/3/03 2:24:49 pm)
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Source
Gail,
You might try the Oxford Companion to Nursery Rhymes. Just a suggestion.
Jess
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GailS
Unregistered User
(2/3/03 8:45:30 pm)
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Counting Rhymes
Thanks for the suggestion, Jess. To get back on track, I'm looking for information on the counting rhymes. The Oxford Companion may have something.
Thanks,
Gail
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Andrey
Bobev
Registered User
(2/4/03 11:50:40 am)
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Counting rhymes
I have some counting rhymes in Bulgarian, but I guess they will not help. The topic is Biblical persons, the counts were used popular both like folk songs and were used in school. The strange thing is they were used by the clergy too - at the beginnings of some rituals the clerks sang them. The rhymes counts to 12, backwards (I hope this is the word) - I mean:
1
2-1
3-2-1
...
12-11-10... - 1
12 are the 12 apostles, 1 is God.
Some of these have their base in medieval Apocrypha.
I know also a funny variant of these counts. Seams that they were quite popular in fact in some ranges of Bulgaria.
Does it help?
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Carrie
Unregistered User
(2/4/03 5:36:59 pm)
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Previous discussion
Kerrie -- Are you out there? I know there was a discussion on this quite some time ago. I used it in a magazine piece I wrote, which was published in August or September 2001. This means I probably wrote it in January or February 2001, which would have been when we first discussed it.
Carrie Miner
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Carrie
Unregistered User
(2/4/03 5:39:18 pm)
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found it!
www.surlalunefairytales.c...crows.html
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GailS
Unregistered User
(2/5/03 4:29:39 am)
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Counting Crows
Thanks for the reference! These include variations I hadn't located.
Gail
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(2/5/03 11:25:06 am)
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lily-white boys
This is no help at all to Gail, but Andrey, this sounds to me sort of along the lines of the song "Green Grow the Rushes-O," which also goes up to twelve and is a peculiar combination of pagan and Christian symbols (my husband learned it in church, which always seemed a bit peverse to me). The full list is:
I'll give you one-o, green grow the rushes-o,
Twelve for the twelve apostles,
Eleven for the eleven who went to heaven,
Ten for the ten commandments,
Nine for the nine bright shiners,
Eight for the April rainers,
Seven for the seven stars in the sky,
Six for the six proud walkers,
Five for the symbols at your door,
Four for the gospel-makers,
Three, three, the rivals,
Two, two the lily-white boys, clathed all in green-o,
One is one and all alone and ever more shall be so.
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Elizabeth
Unregistered User
(2/7/03 1:07:17 pm)
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speaking of which
This has nothing too do with fairy tales, but it is a christian counting song. And hey its a christmas song to.
Children go where I send thee
How shall I send thee
I'm gonna send thee one by one
One for itty bity baby
That was born, born, born in Bethlahem...
nine for the nine that dresed so fine
eight for the eight that stood at the gate
seven for the seven that never got to heaven
six for the six that something
five for the five that stayed alive
four for the four that stood at the door
three for the hebrew children
two for the paul and silas
one for the itty bity baby
that was born, born, born in bethlahem
Gotta love peter, paul, and mary
Liz
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Carrie
Unregistered User
(2/10/03 8:00:26 am)
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magpie
Not a crow, but I ran across this piece on magpies and is seemed similar enough that I decided to add it to this post. (everything below is directly quoted in Peter Lorie's "Superstitions")
There are many recorded instances of country folk being n real terror if a single pynot or "Maggotty-Pie" flew across their path. Two of the most popular rhymes concerning this dangerous bird of omen are:
One for Anger
Two for Mirth
Three for a Wedding
And for for a Birth
Five for Silver
But six for Gold
Seven for a secret
that's never been told.
Eight for Heaven
And nine for Hell
Ten for the Devil
Who'll get yer so'elle
One for Sorrow
Two for Joy
Three for a Letter
Four for a Boy
Five is for rich
And six for Poor
Seven for a Witch
And Eight for a Whore
Nine for Burying
I ca tell thee no more.
Tradition accusses the magpie of not wearing full mourning at the Crucifixtion and is supposed to carry a drop of the Devil's blood under its tongue.
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GailS
Unregistered User
(2/10/03 4:30:41 pm)
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Counting Crows
Now that’s interesting – the first variant with a whore. Why rhyme rich and poor with witch and whore? Some poor herbalist and another woman, who could find no other employment, get condemned for not starving. Am surprised this one DOESN’T have the devil in it.
Thanks,
Gail
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