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Comment
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Blackwolf
Unregistered User
(11/26/03 10:00 pm)
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An interesting news article
news.telegraph.co.uk/news...airy26.xml
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batyler65
Registered User
(11/27/03 6:37 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article
Yes, that is interesting. I'd have to say I agree with the opinion that Barbie dolls are more worrisome. And music videos.
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Niniane
Sunyata
Registered User
(11/28/03 9:26 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article
I would say that - if anything- fairytales teach kids to look beyond the appearances of things. Of course, Cinderella et al are the more popular of fairytales, but they do not represent the entire pantheon. And yes, Barbie dolls, and the kind of stuff that is shown on tv these days is far more alarming.
(edit note: Yikes! Did not notice half of my sentence got accidentally
deleted. That'll teach me to post when I'm half-awake)
Anita Harris.
Terra Mythogene
www.mythopoetica.com
Edited by: Niniane Sunyata at: 11/29/03 6:42 am
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batyler65
Registered User
(11/29/03 11:28 am)
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Re: An interesting news article
I agree that fairy tales teach children to look beyond appearances.
At least the written ones. I grew up reading Grimm's tales (and
my mother always wondered where I'd gotten a taste for the macabre)
but the stories kids are being "fed" today tend to be
the Disneyfied versions. As a parent, I'm disturbed by the whole
"beauty" aspect of Disney's Cinderella, Snow White, etc.
Even worse: the perpetuation of the idea of girls waiting to be
rescued by male characters.
Barb
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Lavengro
Registered User
(11/30/03 12:27 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article
Certainly is interesting, yet I would go a lot further. The original 'Cinderalla' was called "Ashputal" and the two stepsisters in it were not 'ugly' as was put in much later. They were also of great physical beauty, yet were ugly in their hearts. They payed the price in the end, and were found out, while the pure at heart, demure Ashputtal won the Prince.
I do congratulate the makers of Shrek though. What a great deviation from what I have come to expect form Hollywood. I point blank refuse to pay to watch anything to do with Disney, who have torn the guts out of so many great tales, simply to fit in with a very narrow concept of what is the 'right way'. Please see also on these pages under the request for info on The Firebird - I make a small rant about the whole concept of stories changing over time, and the original meaning being removed.
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jess63
Registered User
(12/1/03 12:33 am)
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Re: An interesting news article
I had an opportunity to hear the author of this study speak on the radio this weekend. What struck me most was that the study did not really (appear to) focus on the greater meaning of the story, but rather was more a taxonomy study counting references to beauty. Interestingly, she, the author, failed to notice or comment on the fact that while beauty was a frequent characteristic of the protaganists in these stories, it also was frequently the cause on her problems. Although she noted that beauty was often what "propelled the story forward." She, the author, also failed to note that it was the ingenuity or strength of other characteristics of the protaganists that got the protaganists out of trouble. While I was listening to this conversation, I mentally noted to myself that in the stories the author mentioned, the proganist often hid her beauty (or it was hidden for her) from the world (i.e., Snow White, hidden in a cottage; Cinderella, hidden by ashes, etc. -and an example not mentioned was Donkeyskin, hidden by the fur).
Jess
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janeyolen
Registered User
(12/2/03 6:22 am)
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Re: An interesting news article
The author of that study obviously had not read THE CINDERELLA CASEBOOK (ed. Dundes) and more specifically my article "America's Cinderella" where I refute the idea that Cinderella was ALWAYS about beauty winning the prince. Rather in most of the earlier (pre Disney) Cinderellas, she either figures out how to win the prince on her own, or works with the magic-character to do so. She's a crafty, smart, dedicated hero, and not someone simply waiting around for a prince.
Jane
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jess63
Registered User
(12/2/03 9:21 am)
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Re: An interesting news article
I need to read the article, but my understanding is that she took Grimms' fairy tales, and I don't know whose translation or which versions, and based the study solely on these. She said, and I don't know whether this is true or not, that "Puss in Boots" was the only tale in Grimms' that made a reference to a man's appearance as being "handsome."
Her concern was about how we, American society, focus on beauty or image as the "primary" characteristic of women/girls, and she wanted to use Grimms' as an example of older literature that did the same thing. I think she was actually suggesting that it might be "harmful" for girls to read these fairy tales, just as one could argue that it is harmful for girls to be bombarded with touched up magazine images of supermodels. Whether that was actually her intent or not, that is the message that she conveyed in her radio talk. I only wish I could have asked her questions!
She is a professor at Purdue University. I think the U.K. article gives her name. I imagine as a Socieologist that she would be interested in knowing the response of the public to her thesis.
Jess
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LadyWolf
Registered User
(12/2/03 1:12 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article...
I think that the notion that fairytales are damaging to young children's psyches is ridiculous. At the age that most children are first told stories such as these, they are still operating with such ideas that 'pretty is good, ugly is bad.' That mind-set is not a signal of the downfall of the sensibilities of young girls at large; rather it is a developmental stage of thought that responds to the fact that children, especially those between the ages of 3 and 7, commonly identify things that are attractive to them as being safe.
I highly doubt that the transformation of Fiona in "Shrek" will change anything that has to do with the way that children approach fairy tales. Actually, I found that movie to be enjoyable primarily on a more adult level - many of the ideas were quite frankly too complex for young children to fully 'get'. Even after my niece saw that film (again...and again...and again), she still always played the role of the 'beautiful princess' in her make-believe games. Do I think that she is then destined for a life of cashing in on her looks alone?
What I do find disturbing is the trend of paring down fairytales into fluffy, 'disneyfied' versions that minimize real threats and hardships into something that can be overcome with just a little bit of spunk. Whatever happened to the crafty little girl in "The Story of Grandmother", or the earlier versions of Snow White where S.W. herself was only about 7 years old when she was forced to fend for herself? The fact that a child of her age could not only plead for her life with a hired assassin but also convince a pack of rather obstinate men to allow her to life with them (and then actually work for her keep) is astonishing. Yet it is these heartening details (among many other pockets of wisdom) that are being rejected because they may be too offensive or too frightening for young children.
In agreement with the final few statements of the article, I also believe that the study is severely misguided. The study seems to focus on little more than very surface level details without taking into account what messages are actually conveyed by the stories. It is generally heroines with kind hearts and good work ethics that are rewarded, rather than simply those with long, flirty eyelashes.
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atrayu
Registered User
(12/2/03 1:18 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article
During thanksgiving my niece told me all about her "beautiful" Irish princess barbie doll who "has pretty long red hair down to here!" (she bent over and touched her knees)
My niece and her sister have so many barbies I could puke. They always tell me about each of them, mostly the features which make them "beautiful." Interestingly, my nieces are both cute, stumpy brunettes who will never look anything like those dolls. Will they think they are "beautiful" too when they get older?
These girls think the same way regarding Disney characters, (she's so beautiful!) but it is more subtle because these characters "do" things (barbie just sits there with a plastic smile and a twinkle in her makeup encrusted eye)
Characters who do things are more influental than characters who don't do things. Barbie is a permanent image of "beauty" and so is Cinderella. But Cinderella is also a permanent example of "virtuous character" too, a female role model for girls. The problem is when her virtue is confused with her beauty, or when her beauty becomes her virtue. It should be that her beauty comes from her virtue...that way stumpy little brunettes are included too.
-A
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(12/3/03 10:20 pm)
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An interesting news article
While I can see why some would consider Fairy Tales like "Cinderella" and "Snow White" to be damaging to young girls, I believe there are many other things that can be taken from such stories. For example: although Cinderella is described as being beautiful, she is not conceited or self-absorbed. Her beauty only saved her indirectly once the prince fell in love with her. And while she couldn't have gone to the ball without the help of her fairy godmother (maybe leading some to believe she was helpless), one could also/instead take away from the story that good things came her way because she was patient and good.
Also note that in many texts of the story, Cinderella is described as being "as beautiful as she was kind". This hints that kindness was a very important characteristic of Cinderella; her beauty was in no way superior.
What about the wicked queen from "Snow White"? She was beautiful physically, but that's where her beauty ended. She was jealous, vain, murderous, over-bearing and bad-tempered. All these qualities were the cause of her destruction, and her looks could do nothing for her. When I was young, I didn't assume that because someone was ugly they were evil, too. I was very much able to separate these two qualities. For the author of this article to make such a statement is underestimating a child's knowledge.
I feel that the real problem isn't the stories themselves; it's the way such stories are marketed. While I admire the Disney Fairy Tale films, the way the princess characters are marketed can be questionable. A little girl might idolize, say, Cinderella, because she gets to wear pretty dresses. This isn't teaching young ones good values.
That's not to say that all Fairy Tales are "safe". I would definetely feel that a Fairy Tale such as "The Ugly Duckling" could be harmful. On the surface, the duckling turned into a swan and then lived happily ever after. But if you look below the surface, you have a duckling that was harassed and made fun of because of his appearance, and the only way he was able to be accepted and live happily was by becoming something else. The message of this story is certainly not one you you would want to send out to young impressionables.
In closing, I believe that it is ultimately up to the teacher or parent to inform a child what is right and wrong, good and bad; such lessons shouldn't be taught solely through stories.
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janeyolen
Registered User
(12/5/03 8:15 am)
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Re: An interesting news article
"That's not to say that all Fairy Tales are "safe". I would definetely feel that a Fairy Tale such as "The Ugly Duckling" could be harmful. On the surface, the duckling turned into a swan and then lived happily ever after. But if you look below the surface, you have a duckling that was harassed and made fun of because of his appearance, and the only way he was able to be accepted and live happily was by becoming something else. The message of this story is certainly not one you you would want to send out to young impressionables."
I think you have gotten the wrong message out of the story. Once the ugly duckling stops trying to be what he is not and becomes what he IS, he achieves his happiness.
Jane
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AlisonPegg
Registered User
(12/5/03 1:35 pm)
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Absolutely!
Couldn't agree with you more, Jane! And the message being, don't waste your life being what other people expect of you. Go out and do your own thing. Be swan like! And certainly don't waste time being organized, making lists, ticking boxes, and being the wholesome, well balanced, efficient, logical person who also takes exercise every day and eats a balanced diet i.e. the person we're all encouraged to be these days..... or else, yes you'll have missed your life!! Believe me, I've discovered everything by doing the opposite. My advice is, be messy, be chaotic....but hell, focus on what's important! God...... glad I got that off my chest.
Alison
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jess63
Registered User
(12/5/03 2:12 pm)
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Re: Absolutely!
Alison,
Except some of us ARE that person..."being organized, making
lists, ticking boxes, and being the wholesome, well balanced, efficient,
logical person who also takes exercise every day and eats a balanced
diet..."-well, I don't tick boxes. That IS my swan. Oh, and
it is the only way I can manage 3 boys, a couple of pages of writing,
read, and keep up with the other things that are important to me.
Jess
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AlisonPegg
Registered User
(12/5/03 3:22 pm)
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Swans and other things....
Oh, don't get me wrong Jess. I understand all that only too well. I've done my stint on all of it, believe me, including teaching them to drive....!! Maybe that's why I'm so passionate about doing it all the opposite way now. The funny thing is the more chaotic I get, the more I seem to learn...... and it's brilliant. I wish I'd had the courage to break free earlier. Yet all education here now seems to be about teaching people to paint by numbers. No thinking outside the box, whatever they say to the contrary.
Alison
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ARTSFAN
Registered User
(12/5/03 4:31 pm)
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An interesting news article
"I think you have gotten the wrong message out of the story."
I don't believe I got the wrong message out of this story at all. That is only YOUR opinion. While there are many messages one could take from a story such as "The Ugly Duckling", the message of not being accepted because you are different, and then wanting to become something else to please other people is a very prevalent theme in this story for me. While the Ugly Duckling gained happiness from becoming a swan, is that to say that a child who is different can only gain happiness through becoming something they're not. Absolutely not.
Being different is something to be proud of, and that is something that young kids need to understand. I don't entirely believe that "The Ugly Duckling" would convey this message too clearly. I don't recall hearing this story in grade school, and once I did read it on my own, I didn't feel that justice was served. Here is a passage from the story after the duckling becomes a swan:
"Children came to feed the swans with bread and cake. Seeing a newcomer, they looked at him closely and said he was the most handsome of all. As he listened to the children shouting and laughing, he remembered the times he had bullied and pecked. Now everyone had kind words for him."
"He streched his neck up in the air and thought, "I never dreamt of such joy when I was only the ugly duckling."
The Classic Treasury of Hans Christian Andersen
Illustrated by Christian Birmingham
Retold by Margeret Clark
pg.50
2002 by Running Press
"Once the ugly duckling stops trying to be what he is not and becomes what he IS, he achieves his happiness."
I don't see how you could feel that way. While he did try to fit in and become something that he was not, his attempts were of no use. He was still harrassed and abused. Once he becomes a swan, he is happy because he fits in, but that meant changing who he was. For me, the bottom line of the story is that a duckling had to turn into a swan in order to gain acceptance and happiness, rather than being accepted for what he was. Think about it, is that an idea you would want to teach young kids? I certainly wouldn't.
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(12/5/03 7:26 pm)
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Re: An interesting news article
The point is that the duckling never was a duck in the first place. He was a swan all along but didn't know it due to circumstances beyond his control. He kept trying to be what he wasn't--a duck--and then learned he was a swan. Once he learned what he was and accepted himself, he was happy. He spends most of the story trying to be like the rest of the crowd--that's the ducks--not realizing what he was himself.
Ducks are not swans. Swans are not ducks. The ugly duckling was never a duck. He was just mistaken as one thanks to a misplaced egg.
The ugly duckling didn't change. He just grew up into the beautiful adult swan he was always supposed to be. This isn't a story about magical transformation from one species to another. It's about growing up and being what you were meant to be with all of the inherent talents.
Telling your child that he or she will grow up to be a beautiful adult --inside and out-- despite the pressures and disdain of his or her peers is a good thing. The story says "ignore the crowds, just be who you really are!" IMHO, of course.
Heidi
PS: On the other htopic, I have periods of extreme organization--after all I'm a librarian--and others of utter chaos. I find I am happiest somewhere in the middle creatively and spiritually. Neither extreme makes many allowances for the needs of the other and my life needs both.
Edited by: Heidi Anne Heiner at: 12/5/03 7:30 pm
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Blackwolf
Unregistered User
(12/5/03 9:15 pm)
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Misplaced Zygote
I am strongly reminded of Clarissa Este Pinkola's tale about the
misplaced zygote here.
I personally feel that the 'Ugly Duckling' and indeed a lot of the fairy tales are open to multiple interpretations, hence the immense treasure trove we have of plays, stories, novels, graphic novels, animation and movies. To me, the ugly duckling reminds us to be ourselves and the tale strongly resonates with me with the message of searching for somewhere to belong and your own kind. But again, that's my own take of the tale.
Digressing a little, there is some shading of this theme (of belonging and finding your own kind) in the movie 'Elf'.
Blackwolf
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(12/5/03 11:37 pm)
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An interesting news article
I immensely enjoy the tales of Hans Christian Andersen, and my quips with "The Ugly Duckling" are only based on how I feel a child could possibly respond to it. The news article that inspired this whole conversation dealt with Fairy Tales and how they could possibly affect children negatively. One story that immediately came to my mind was "The Ugly Duckling", because, in my opinion, it has a prevalent message of conforming to others to gain acceptance.
Here is an explanation that might help you better understand my feelings: think of the Ugly Duckling as that awkward girl who had braces and wore hand-me-down clothes that you went to school with. She was different, and so she was teased. She didn't fit in with the popular crowd, and she wasn't exactly drop-dead gorgeous. But when she grew up, she became very attractive. So you think it was a happy ending. I don't.
The Ugly Duckling was not accepted as he was. Everyone thought he was ugly, and he was mistreated. It wasn't until he became a swan, a creature of beauty, that he was treated kindly. That's very much an issue today, especially with girls. Some girls feel that they have to be a replica of a model you see on the cover of Cosmopolitan in order to gain acceptance and respect. Because of such issues in the world today, I feel that a story like "The Ugly Duckling" would have to be handled carefully in a classroom setting.
While I agree that many ideas can be taken from this story, I personally felt that the problem was unresolved. The Ugly Duckling was no longer mistreated after he became a swan, and that was because he fit it with the other animals idea of what is beautiful and praise-worthy. But the fact of the matter is one point in time he was abused because he was thought to be ugly and unacceptable. In a word, different.
For me, it's easy to imagine a kid raising their hand and asking, "why didn't the other animals like the duckling before he was a swan?" My answer would be because he was different, and that's not a reason to mistreat someone. So while I by no means dislike this story, I'm only cautious that it could possibly send out a wrong message.
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GailS
Unregistered User
(12/8/03 8:33 am)
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Grimm Tales
The story has now been picked up by the American Press.
GailS
www.delawareonline.com/ne...sects.html
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Niniane
Sunyata
Registered User
(12/8/03 10:15 am)
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Re: more tales
Someone should tell her (person doing the study) about fairytales like "Laidronette" etc. And the heroes/heroines who meet gnarled old men or women in the woods and share their measly meals with them. I remember stories like that from my childhood, which taught you not to take appearances for granted. And there's this other tale which is a favourite of mine about an ugly daughter who rides about on a goat banging a wooden spoon. Can't remember the title right now, though.
What about the "Princess and the Frog"? Sure, they all transform into bodacious babes and handsome stud-lings, but the overall message was that the beauty lay within. The only problem I can see with it is that most of the transformation tales have to do with beautiful chicks transforming hideous creatures into handsome dudes, rather than the other way round. With some exceptions, like "Kemp Owyne" and the tale of Oisin and Niamh (also mirrored in Sir Gawain, I think it was Niamh who first appeared to Oisin w/ a pig's face, but I could be mistaken.).
Sometimes they *do* have to be rendered into simple terms for kids.
But I suppose there has to be equivalent + simple ways to bring
across the meaning apart from "and then he turns into a handsome
prince". Would require some creativity, that
I'm not totally against the study *shrug*. I think it presents some food for thought, and I'm sure the newspapers have sensationalized some parts and left out the others. They always do, when reporting about studies. I wouldn't know, but it would be interesting to read the actual report etc, if any.
As for the Ugly Duckling, yes, I really liked Clarissa Pinkola Estes's re-envisioning of it in "Women who run with the Wolves". Good stuff. I related a lot to the Ugly Duckling as a kid. It seemed to me more a tale of finding your real home, rather than about mere appearances per se. I suppose that's the way Hans Christian Anderson felt, too.
Anita Harris.
Terra Mythogene
www.mythopoetica.com
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