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Author
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Comment
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alice
Unregistered User
(11/3/03 7:15 am)
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alice in wonderland and the sandman
hi im new, but been visiting for a while and adore this site! just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on 'Alice in wonderland'. hasn't got the same history as Cinderella, snow white etc...and i think that adds mystery and depth to those tales. but still one of my favorite stories as a kid and one that im looking at quite closely along with little red ridding hood and e.t.a.Hoffman's 'the sandman'. would be interesting to see if anyone else is involved with these tales.
thanx
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LornaYnot
Registered User
(11/8/03 1:02 pm)
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Alice In Wonderland
Is Alice In Wonderland considered a fairytale? I've studied it in Victorian literature classes but it is always presented as a satire as well as an exercise in logic. Occasionally it is presented as an early foray into speculative fiction. I've read both Alice books several times and they don't really have a feel of magic about them that I, personally, associate with fairy tales. There is no mystery or genuine magic in them; Wonderland and the Looking Glass world operate by very specific laws of logic that define them. Hmm ... I'll have to reread these books over winter break and think about this a bit more.
Lorna
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(11/8/03 1:38 pm)
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Re: Alice In Wonderland
Alice in Wonderland is not technically a fairy tale, so don't think about it too much as one. It might make an interesting analysis to compare it to fairy tales, but it is not traditional folklore. It's a novel by a specific author. It might be argued that parts of the story have entered our modern day folklore as recognizable elements, symbols, etc. such as the Cheshire Cat and the rabbit down the hole. However, the story has a definite entry date into our canon of literature without any great previous influence from oral tradition.
Heidi
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LornaYnot
Registered User
(11/9/03 9:09 am)
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oral tradition v. specific entry date in literature
Dear Heidi,
This itself seems an interesting question to me because I have recently been studying Angela Carter's The Courtship of Mr. Lyon, as well as Beauty And The Beast which is also a literary creation. At first I thought, well of course, B&B might be a work of literature, but it comes from a long tradition of animal bridegroom tales and has a firm base in folklore. While the connection between Alice and folklore is fuzzier, the theme of a hero or heroine entering an alternate reality and having tasks to accomplish in order to complete a quest is based in myth. While I still don't think of the Alice books as fairy tales (or even children's stories, truth be told), I find myself wondering if Carroll used myth and folklore as a jumping off point for his imagination. I think that I think too much!
Sincerely,
Lorna
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(11/9/03 10:52 am)
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Re: oral tradition v. specific entry date in literature
I am not very particular about my definitions of folklore, but I am asked the question so much that I have had to set some boundaries for myself. For example, we are regularly asked if Harry Potter is a fairy tale on this board and elsewhere. There is an easier line to draw with Harry since he is so recent; Harry Potter is not a fairy tale in the traditional sense. But will he take on folklore qualities in the years to come?
Beauty and the Beast did start out as a literary creation, along with many Hans Christian Andersen's tales. But these stories have entered and re-entered oral tradition and were directly influenced by folklore themes and traditions. Beauty and the Beast has been reinterpreted so many times, I can't even keep up with it on SurLaLune.
On the other hand, I definitely think Carroll was influenced by the folklore he had heard and read, but I doubt his intention to write a fairy tale. He had a completely different set of goals in mind. I know we agree here, Lorna. I'm just stating my view for the record.
As I said in my earlier post, I do think it is interesting to consider how Alice has taken on folkloric qualities through the elements we recognize without having ever read the book or necessarily having seen a movie of it. I would consider those elements to be part of our modern day folklore in a broader sense along with Dorothy's slippers and other elements from Oz.
Heidi
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LornaYnot
Registered User
(11/10/03 10:36 pm)
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harry potter and Oz
You know, it's funny - I have never really given this much thought before ... but I suppose I have rather stringent notions of what constitutes a fairy tale! Yet I have read tales by Byatt that don't seem to reference earlier tales ... nonetheless, they are fairy tales to my mind. Now, folklore is a broader topic. When I think of Harry Potter, I think of it more in terms of epic. It seems to me that in recent decades, epics have been satirical and the heroes not particularly heroic in the old fashioned sense of the word. I agree with you regarding elements of literature that take on folkloric qualities. Recently I have seen cars with bumper stickers referencing Oz ... one reads, "I haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister" and the other reads, "Don't make me call my flying monkeys." Maybe that is the test of whether something has taken on folkloric qualities in contemporary society ... bumper stickers. Interesting though that people seem to be identifying with the Wicked Witch ... I remember a time when people seemed to identify more with Dorothy.
Sincerely,
Lorna
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Jess
Unregistered User
(11/11/03 10:04 pm)
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Annotations of Alice
There are several good annotated versions of the Alice books if you are really interested. The one I refer to fairly frequently is quite old. My son is currently using it, however, so it might take me a couple of days. Any specific references you are interested in knowing the "source" of, i.e., the Chershire Cat?
Jess
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rachel
Unregistered User
(12/17/03 8:35 pm)
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Please read
"The Annotated Alice" by Martin Gardner. It will, once and for all, disuade you from thinking of Alice as a fairy tale.
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