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Author
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Comment
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piyi
Registered User
(8/11/03 6:37 am)
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fairy tales and gender
hello everyone!!!!i I have an assignment about how gender is portrayed in fairy tales in a stereotypical way . Does anyone know anything about the topic?Thank u!!!!
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(8/11/03 10:28 am)
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re:fairy tales and gender
Gender is portrayed in many stereotypical in fairy tales. In so
many stories you have the beautiful maiden who is in distress. She
must endure mistreatment, sometimes even cheat death, to be happy.
However, usually the only way the princess is saved is by her prince.
This could be interpreted as females being weak and unable to help
themselves. This type of scenario is found in "Cinderella",
"Sleeping Beauty", and "Snow White". But notice
that these heroines are suffering due to another female. Cinderella
suffers due to her Wicked Stepmother and two Wicked Step-sisters.
Sleeping Beauty suffers due to an angered fairy, and Snow White
suffers because of the Wicked Queen. So females are portrayed as
both weak and powerful. Usually the beautiful and kind female is
"weak", and the unattractive cruel female is powerful.
This can easily be considered offensive. I hope I've helped you
out, and if you have any other questions I'd be happy to help!
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Midori
Unregistered User
(8/11/03 11:18 am)
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Beast to the Blonde
Hmmm..I am not sure I agree with everything artsfan has written--stories like Sleeping Beauty have some wonderfully rich origins where the beautiful heroines are pretty tough and interesting--controlling the story at times. And even the scary ugly women, like Baba Yaga have their ambiguities--she might try and nibble on the hero or heroines bones, or she will give away the secrets to the next stage of the journey.
I would suggest taking a glance at Marina Warner's "From The Beast to the Blonde" --which is a fabulous examination of the roles of women in the fairy tale and her "No Go the Bogeyman" which is the companion piece about men. Warner is a wonderful scholar and even an hour reading this book will give you tons of ideas and references. You should be able to find in any University library and a good bookstore.
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(8/11/03 12:19 pm)
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Re: Beast to the Blonde
We have had many discussions that have touched this topic. Unfortunately, the search engine on SurLaLune is not working at the moment, but should be up later today. Do search the archives through the search engine on later today or tomorrow:
www.surlalunefairytales.com
Here is one of the discussions I found the round about way:
Gender of hero(ine), villain
www.surlalunefairytales.c...o_pg1.html
Heidi
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piyi
Registered User
(8/11/03 12:52 pm)
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thank u
Thank u very much all indeed.U ve been very helpful!!!!!!!!
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Lauren
Registered User
(8/11/03 11:50 pm)
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Re: fairy tales and gender
I am doing a research assignment on an aspect of the same topic,
and would like to add my 2 cents worth on some of the ideas artsfan
brought up! As an Arabic language student, I'm concentrating on
the story of "One Thousand and One Nights" - looking at
the way in which the plight of Scheherazade has captured the imaginations
of women of the Arab world. Scheherazade is a great example of a
heroine who must cheat death not for her own happiness, but for
the sake of the survival of all the other young women in the land!
She is not saved by a prince, but by her own intelligence, education
and cunning - an idea which in classical Arabic literature, and
even in some of the better known European fairy tales is a little
out of the ordinary! If you have the time / inclination, have a
read of the story - it's a great tale, if nothing else!
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Terri
Registered User
(8/12/03 2:30 am)
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gender
Like Midori, I also have a somewhat different opinion than Artsfan.
While it's true that many of the simplistic versions of fairy tales
popular today are rife with gender stereotypes, you have to remember
that these versions have been altered by collectors such as the
Brothers Grimm, by Victorian editors such as Andrew Lang, and by
20th century media moguls such as Walt Disney, all of whom were
conservative, middle-class white males, who changed the tales (sometimes
slightly, sometimes drastically) to fit their own notions of gender,
Christian piety, and morality. If you go back to older versions
of fairy tales such as Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White,
however, you find some fiesty, pro-active heroines indeed. Definitely
read Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde for an in-depth discussion
of gender in fairy tales. For a quick look at the history of the
tales Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, and Snow White, you might want
to check out the articles in the Reading Room on the Endicott site
(www.endicott-studio.com/readingRoom.html).
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janeyolen
Registered User
(8/12/03 4:20 am)
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Depends...
Long ago, Sir Francis James Child said that all folk ballads (and by extension, folk tales) are changed by one of three tellers: the blind beggar, the nursery maid, or the clerk.
I have always loved that assessment.
Jane
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Midori
Unregistered User
(8/12/03 5:49 am)
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one more thought
Another wonderful book on the subject (a more indirect, or personal look perhaps) is "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall; Women Writers Discuss Their Favorite Fairy Tales" edited by Kate Bernheimer. It's a wonderful collection of essays (including a fabulous one by Julia Alverez about Shaherazad! also one of my favorite heroines! and Chitra Divakarunee writing about the Serpent Queen). These essays are fairly easy to read--Atwood's and Byatt's are rather academic but fascinating--and many others are quite personal. I'd say you would enjoy it and it might give you some additional insights.
(*Jane--love the Child quotation!)
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(8/13/03 12:29 am)
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Gender and Fairy Tales
I am sitting here, trying to think of what you are talking about with earlier versions of fairy tales portraying the heroines as tough. I can't help but think that you are mistaken. If, in fact, such stories existed, in what ways was the heroine tough? I know there are other stories in which females are strong, wise, clever, and beautiful- but I don't see Snow White as being tough and feisty. The first known Snow White was recorded by the Grimm Brothers after hearing it in Cassel, Germany. But instead of the Wicked Queen being a Step-mother, she was Snow White's birth mother. The Grimms changed the Wicked Queen into a Step-mother due to their religious beliefs and morals. But they did not change Snow White's role as the put upon Step-daughter who is deceived. Are these earlier versions you are talking about similar stories to "Sleeping Beauty", "Snow White", and "Cinderella" but under a different name, and from an entirely different culture?
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janeyolen
Registered User
(8/13/03 3:47 am)
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Tough girls
I have an article about the earlier "tough" Cinderella called "America's Cinderella" which you can find in Dundes" THE CINDERELLA CASEBOOK and in shortened form in my TOUCH MAGIC.
Basically, the earlier varients has Cinderella taking an active hand in her own rescuing, even dissembling with her stepsisters to throw them off the trail. In several of the Cinderella strands--most basically the incest strand--she runs off from her father the king who wants to marry here, makes her way into another kingdom, and wins the prince by her own wits.
Jane
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Terri
Registered User
(8/13/03 1:55 am)
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Re: Gender and Fairy Tales
Snow White existed long before the Brothers Grimm published their version of it in the 19th century. Most people know the Grimms version best today (or else, God help us, the Walt Disney version) -- but there were many older versions of tales like Snow White, Cinderella, and Sleeping Beauty before the
the Brothers Grimm or Charles Perrault came along. We find versions of all these tales in the fairy tale collections published in 16th century Italy, for instance, and the very earliest versions tend to go back to Arabia and China. They're not always called by the same names, and they don't always have the exact same plot elements that the Grimms Brothers chose to use. That's exactly the point, however -- that the variants we know best today come to us shaped by men like the Grimms, who edited the tales to conform to their own ideas about morals and gender. So it would be, in my opinion, too broad a statement to say that all fairy tales have stereotypical attitudes about women. Certainly the Grimms versions do. Certainly the Walt Disney versions do. But if we look at other versions of the same stories, particularly earlier versions, they can be surprising.
That's not to say that every early version was "feminist" as we understand the term today, but one tends to find a much broader range of female activity in the earlier tales (as well more overtly sexual themes) -- and feisty heroines tend to be far more prevalent if you look beyond the versions published in 19th century Germany and England.
Artsfan, for more information on earlier variants of fairy tales, I posted a link above which will lead you to Midori's article on Sleeping Beauty on the Endicott Studio web site, and to articles on Cinderella and Snow White as well. (And Bluebeard, Donkeyskin, etc.). For an in-depth exploration of fairy tale history, the Marina Warner book (From the Beast to the Blonde) is really first rate.
Edited by: Terri at: 8/13/03 9:46 am
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(8/13/03 8:50 am)
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Re: Gender and Fairy Tales
And one of my favorite feisty heroines is Petrosinella, an earlier Italian Rapunzel. After years of reading about Rapunzel living in that tower, it was a great relief to find Petrosinella planning and coordinating her own escape with the man of her choice. Read it here:
www.surlalunefairytales.c...etros.html
Little Red Riding Hood rescues herself by claiming she has to go outside to use the bathroom. The Princess and the Pea pretends to be bruised when a helper tells her about the pea. Cinderella is a murderess in one Italian version--she murders one stepmother only to get one that is much worse. There are so many variants of these tales. The question is really why society has embraced the versions with docile women over their spunkier countertypes--even before Disney put them on the silver screen.
Heidi
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Jess
Unregistered User
(8/13/03 1:35 pm)
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gender and fairy tales
And lest you think that all fairy tales end up with the maiden choosing to marry the prince, there is a wonderful Italian tale about the daughter of merchant who saves her father's business by winning a bet against the neighbor merchant. The winner must bring back the scepter of the king of France. With the help of her own wits and her feisty horse, the maiden gets the scepter AND the opportunity to marry the king. Interestingly though, she rejects the marriage offer and goes home to win the bet instead. I loved that story.
Jess
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gormghlaith
Registered User
(8/13/03 4:20 pm)
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Re: gender and fairy tales
Doesn’t the stereotype change, depending on locale and time and audience? Cinderella for example: when she's Cenerentola (found on this site)
www.surlalunefairytales.c...neren.html
she kills the first stepmother who is cruel to her and later threatens
her father. At the close of the story, with her slipper and prince
well secured, her rise from servitude back to nobility 'touched
the hearts' of all. But really, it seems that a mix of cleverness,
survival instinct, and knowing the right people (her fairy godmother
as played by the Dove of the Fairies), has gotten her there, rather
then the inherent goodness and good girl-ness that raises Cinderella
in the Disney version. The perception of which traits serve a woman
best in causing change in her life are starkly different. Perhaps
it would be easier for you to pick the stereotypical heroines of
a certain country, or the same heroine in different collections
(ex. Perrault versus Grimm), or the differences between the heroines
told to a peasant child, the nobility (as I think the above version
was), and movie goers. Anway, isnt it fun to puzzle out the whys
of what you're taught?
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chirons
daughter
Registered User
(8/13/03 5:28 pm)
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the red wolf
Anybody see that sly, lovely picture book that came out recently, called "The Red Wolf"? Princess in her tower, overprotective father, (there always is that subtext about father's possessiveness of daughter's virginity, or one generation's proprietary attitude toward the next's reproductive potential); escape from and return to the tower. But the twist is marvellous: if she's got to be in there, she's going to take dad down a peg nonetheless. Is this new? Has it been told that way before?
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Terri
Registered User
(8/15/03 1:37 am)
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Re: the red wolf
Oh yes! The Red Wolf is a wonderful book. It's written and illustrated by Margaret Shannon.
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briggsw
Unregistered User
(8/15/03 7:23 am)
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Tough enough
The toughest ones I can think of from fairy tales:
* the witch in Hansel and Gretel
* Jack's giant
* the Baba-Yaga
...that is, the protagonist isn't supposed to be powerful; if he or she were, the story would be too easy. The villain, if any, is dangerous. Makes it a lot more satisfying when the child, I mean the protagonist, wins. When Gretel pushed the witch into her own oven, or Jack cut down the beanstalk, I suppose you could call that tough (?).
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Jess
Unregistered User
(8/15/03 9:00 am)
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Times and sterotypes
The lines of acceptable behavior of a woman for a time period cannot be more clearly drawn than in Perrault's tales. I would ask you to contrast the relationships between father and daughter in Bluebeard to that of husband and wife in Griselda. It is interesting to note that the former story is almost always included in collections, whereas the latter is frequently excluded. Why? Perhaps because we now see the abusive nature of the husband in Griselda as unacceptable, and we would not like our daughters to behave in the miserable manner of Griselda. I always shiver when I think of that story, but I also note that it was written/recorded by a man, not a woman.
Compare Griselda too with the stories written by women of the French salons and you get quite a different picture of what behavior and values should entail. In the women's stories, modesty and servitude are often means to an end, not the end in itself.
Thoughts?
Jess
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artsfan
Unregistered User
(8/15/03 12:39 pm)
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Getting Back To The Tough "Cinderella"...
Some people had disagreed with what I said about females being occasionally typecast as weak in fairy tales. And while I have not read any of your suggestions that contain stories with strong females, it was mentioned in the "tough" version of "Cinderella", she murders her wicked step-mother. Um, well, I don't necessarily believe that killing someone is at all a desirable trait. It seems that many of you in this discussion place strong personalities and brains in the same boat as the ability to overcome an obstacle by killing that obstacle. Certainly, in many, many, fairy tales it is vital to destroy villians, especially ones that are dangerous like the witch in "Hansel and Gretel". But in Cinderella's case, this is certainly not excuseable, let alone a strong character trait (unless the step-mother meant to do the same to her)! I would definetely prefer to believe that the "Cinderella" as many know it is the definitive version, and not a dark version in which what is supposed to be a heroine (female hero) is a murderess. This a version I might want to read for comparative reasons, but not much else. I would much prefer the Grimm's "Cinderella". Not because she is put upon and abused and doesn't stand up for herself, but because she is kind and patient. These are far better traits in my book. I feel that this Cinderella deserves any good that comes her way because she is not self-absorbed, but, rather, understanding and caring for a family that despises her. If a Cinderella that murders everytime she wants something is considered "tough" in the way of personality, and not for gruesome content, but is considered a desirable character, than maybe my idea of what tough means is way off....
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Helen
Registered User
(8/15/03 1:36 pm)
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Alternately ...
I don't think that Cenerentola's actions ought to be read as entirely positive: after all, her attempts to improve her life by disposing of her first stepmother result directly in the uncomfortable family situation that leads to the events of neglect and abuse that we still see in later versions by thePerrault, Grimms and Disney. But the fact that she takes these non-stereotypical, individualistic actions, and learns from them, makes her far less of a typical female stereotype than her literary descendents. Traits of selflessness and generousity are, as you say, tremendously admirable, regardless of the gender of the possessor: however, all too often, they are drawn upon as *boundaries* for proper femininity, which does contribute to a rather disturbing paradigm. Examples of strong, non-stereotypical heroines can definitely be found on the main Surlalune site: one of my own favorites is Donkeyskin (mentioned above), a character from another variant of the Cinderella story, in which she is pursued by her own father, and escapes his advances through a combination of guile and self-sufficiency in order to make a life for herself. Perhaps this might present a more "acceptable" model of alternative female strengths.
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