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Author
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Comment
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the
real kirsten
Registered User
(4/15/03 12:46 pm)
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The Gentlemen
i know that this has been discussed before, but i was just wondering if anyone actually knows if "the Gentlemen" (which appeared in an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer called "Hush") was an actual fairytale or if it was just made up for that episode.
kirsten.
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Helen
Registered User
(4/15/03 2:36 pm)
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Good question ...
Dear Kirsten:
This question has come up before, so if you search through the archives, you ought to be able to find some relevant discussions. You might also want to take a look at a book of criticism entitled _Fighting the Forces: What's At Stake in Buffy the Vampire Slayer_ (ed. Wilcox & Lavery, Rowman and Littelfield Publishers, 2002), particularly at the essay "Whose Side Are You on, Anyway? Children, Adults, and the Use of Fairy Tales in Buffy" (Skwire). The general consensus appears to be that Whedon and co. made it up.
Best,
Helen
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Gregor9
Registered User
(4/17/03 7:27 am)
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Gentlemen
Helen,
I likewise have been curious about the source for it. No one seems to know, but everyone seems to feel as if they've heard the rhyme or a variant of the rhyme somewhere--which either means it's lifted from a nursery rhyme or Whedon fabricated something so true to the idea of one, that we all think we've heard it someplace: instant myth.
If you ever get the definitive answer, I'd love to know.
Greg
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Helen
Registered User
(4/17/03 11:30 am)
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Tommyknockers?
Dear Greg:
Well, Joss himself attributed the influences by explaining that "They (the Gentlemen) came from many storybooks and many silent movies and many horror movies and many nightmares and Mr. Burns (from The Simpsons). There's a little bit of Mr. Burns." I can see that ... from what I remember of the rhyme, it seemed equal parts "Tommyknockers" and counting songs. I'd guess fabrication. It's interesting that while so many elements of that episode *seem* to derive from fairytales (aside from the direct allusion), it really uses bits and pieces that don't belong to the realm of popular fairytales so much as folklore. The "silencing" aspect echoes Anderson's "Little Mermaid" a bit, but to find creatures who hunt for specific body parts, you really need to go deep into the lore of cultures that fetishize certain organs as possessing particular qualities. And the fact that they need seven ... it's rather like the villains version of a quest. Interesting.
Helen
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dorisi
Registered User
(4/17/03 8:25 pm)
ezSupporter
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Re: Tommyknockers?
I'm not a Buffy watcher so I don't know that episode, but the term ‘gentlemen' immediately aroused images of men in suits with the facade of ‘civilisation' covering the totally uncivilised evil/strangeness within, which makes them in many ways more frightening and sinister than the rough-looking overtly boorish evil-doer. I'm thinking of the gentlemen villains in Neil Gaiman's ‘Neverwhere' and the men in suits (the men in grey, or is it black?) who are supposed to appear at the houses of people who claim to have had UFO encounters. The suits also remind one of undertakers who need to stress the properness of dress in contrast to the raw and primal aspects of the work they are engaged in.
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Heidi
Anne Heiner
ezOP
(4/17/03 9:26 pm)
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Re: Tommyknockers?
If you would like to read two of the earlier threads on this ever popular topic, please see:
www.surlalunefairytales.c...isone.html
www.surlalunefairytales.c...lemen.html
Heidi
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swood
Registered User
(4/19/03 7:59 am)
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Re: "The Gentlemen"
I always thought the term "Gentlemen" was applied to dangerous faerie type characters out of fear. One doesn't dare to call them anything else for fear of drawing their wrath.
Sarah
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Annette
Unregistered User
(4/23/03 5:37 am)
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Gentlemen
I'm not sure, but I think that the term "Gentlemen" also referred to smugglers, especially around Cornwall in the 18th and 19th centuries. I think I came across it in Jamaica Inn by Daphen du Maurier, but it was a long time ago, so I may be remembering it wrong. :-)
I don't know if the Buffy episode was based on an actual story, but it sure seems like it was.
Annette
Drowning Rapunzel
Obsession, insanity, murder
www.freewebs.com/agisby
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(4/24/03 7:13 am)
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Gentlemen
And don't forget, "the Prince of Darkness is a gentleman"...
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(4/24/03 2:12 pm)
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The Devil's Due
The Devil is indeed a gentleman. He even has his own coat of arms: gules, a fess or between three frogs proper. (Red, a golden band across the middle of the shield separating three green frogs, two above and one below). I've also heard of a version with three lions, but I believe this is the oldest one attributed.
Amazing the things ones accumulates in years of odd research (once upon a time I was a herald in the SCA).
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Rosemary
Lake
Registered User
(4/29/03 7:14 pm)
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Watch the wall my darling....
A Smuggler's Song
IF you wake at midnight, and hear a horse's feet,
Don't go drawing back the blind, or looking in the street,
Them that ask no questions isn't told a lie.
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by.
http://www.kipling.org.uk/poems_smuggler.htm
I think it was a Ashliman's "Name of the Helper", linked from
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html
that had a good English tale or two making a point of the devil living as a country gentleman.
Rosemary
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denag
Registered User
(4/30/03 7:25 am)
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gentlemen
i believe there is a saying that goes:
"a gentleman is a patient wolf"
which brings red-riding-hood to mind.
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