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Author
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Comment
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Helen
Registered User
(9/21/02 9:33:28 pm)
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Kidding?
Dear Ellen:
Actually, I'd feel tremendously honored ... I'm quite happy that you like the idea, and thrilled at the thought of the concept becoming an actuality, with so many amazing participants. The only potential source of regret for me would be maybe not getting to see what promises to be an incredible discussion, as I'm still trying to find some means of getting there... just out of curiousity, would you know if the World Fantasy Convention people record their events for posterity?
Hopefully,
Helen
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Terri
Registered User
(9/22/02 12:09:20 am)
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Re: Kidding?
Kate, an essay from Joss Whedon for your book would be fascinating. I'm afraid that Season 6 Buffy has severely diminished my respect for the man (even if he wasn't much involved day-to-day, he was still at the helm), but his early Buffy work was indeed brilliant and it would be quite interesting to see what he had to say on the subject of fairy tales.
Helen, would love to see the Buffy comments you sent to Kate, if you two don't mind sharing them -- though off-board is probably best since we may be in danger of straying off-topic here. Totally agree with you about the silliness of having a Wiccan raise a Satanic temple...written by a writing staff that (prior to Season 6) I always thought was a lot smarter than that. But then, the entire raising-a-Satanic-temple-and-ending-the-world plot, thrown into the season's story arc at the last possible second, was one of the poorest pieces of writing craft I've seen in a long time -- along with that ridiculous lump of expository nonsense spouted by Anya stuffed in to the script to explain it all. The Buffy writing staff should be deeply ashamed of themselves. I was certainly cringing for them. Also for the bizarre leap in logic that once Willow had murdered her lovers' killers she'd naturally want to murder all her friends as well...explained by Buffy with words to the effect of (can't remember the exact words, but this is close): "She's tasted blood, now she won't stop." Huh? Since when are blood and murder also addictive? I swear this episode, if not the entire season, was written by M.O.O. and Principal Snyder...
Ellen: Lordy, I wish I was going to be at World Fantasy -- sounds like a good panel. We'll definitely have to repeat it (with Helen at the helm) at ICFA or Wiscon.
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Laura
Registered User
(9/22/02 11:19:15 am)
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More learning
Helen, I think you address this in the paper you gave, but what about Chiron/Cheiron? Greek centaur, but a peaceful and civilized teacher. He learned from the gods themselves, then influenced Herakles, Achilles, and Apollo's son Asklepius, god of medicine, among others. For some reason I have a vague recollection of Cheiron having taught Orpheus, at one point. Dante sees him in the 7th circle of Hell, and he comes back as an instructor to Faust. He carried the wounds of parental abandonment and later of accidental damage by Herakles (then gave up immortality to Prometheus so he could die and escape the pain). Jung calls on his story in the archetype of the Wounded Healer.
I bring this up out of curiosity: does anyone here know of modern (or not so modern) novels primarily treating Cheiron as mystical teacher? Focusing on him, rather than the students?
Laura S.
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Helen
Registered User
(9/22/02 2:11:33 pm)
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Too, too true ...
Dear Laura:
Yep ... it looks as though I can't escape my intellectual "roots." "Schools of Magic, Schools of Thought" is an extension of my work on the acquisition of magic ... damn, I think that I just settled on a dissertation topic. Now all that I have to do is find an advisor ...
I cannot think of any modern novels that focus on Chiron; for some reason, they seem doomed to be members of the supporting cast. Ironically, the character of the centuar has come to uniformly figure as a teacher, when, in actuality, Chiron was the exception that proved the rule; in Greek myth, centuars originally symbolized savagery and the Other. In many works - say, the Harry Potter books, or Tanya Huff's wonderful Crystal books - you'll *see* centaurs, briefly, going about their business of stargazing, healing, and teaching, but as for their motivation? It's a blank. It's posited as being an integral part of their nature. It would be wonderful if someone would explore that in a modern context ... in Greek myth, it was assumed to be their Chiron's fate, by dint of his parentage (what's interesting to me, in retrospect, is that I compared this to the table of elements as an undergrad. without knowing a tootin' fact about Structualism or Levi-Strauss ... just goes to prove the old saw about their being nothing new under the sun). In a system of modern magic, where choice appears to be one of the most important elements for most authors, I don't know how it would be handled ... any thoughts?
Interestingly, I find myself going back to _The Fall of the Kings_ here; there aren't any centaurs, per se, but the figures of teachers and four-legged beasts are certainly present; though they are placed in opposition, illustrating the duality between man and nature, at the same time, there's a fascinating interplay between the two; the ultimate "message" appears to concern the fact that civilization must follow the passage of the seasons, and the pattern of nature, or else face stagnation. The revitalizing force of nature is the source of knowledge, and the reasons for bestowing that knowledge are tied to the needs of the land. _The Fall of the Kings_ is based more, as far as I can tell, in the mythos of the Celts, but the underlying message is similar, as far as I can tell ... though, I could be totally off here (if so, I do beg your pardons).
Best,
Helen
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fherman1
Unregistered User
(9/22/02 5:31:00 pm)
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Savage Centaurs from Beyond
Helen:
Quote:
Ironically, the character of the centuar has come to uniformly figure as a teacher, when, in actuality, Chiron was the exception that proved the rule; in Greek myth, centuars originally symbolized savagery and the Other.
Interestingly, there've been several recent military science fiction novels presenting all-destroying centaur-like aliens as savage threats to human civilization: John Dalmas' _Soldiers_ and John Ringo's _A Hymn Before Battle_ come to mind. Obviously these aren't fairy tales per se, or even modern fantasy in any sense but that in which SF is a subset of it, but in a way this does seem like a hearkening back to the mythic model. Or even a combination of the two models--the terrible Other *and* the teacher/stargazer--since at least in these works, the centaurs in question are also the possessors of interstellar-level technologies and serve as the heads of empire. So a contemporary thread: the deadly threat and promising source of wisdom/power as one and the same? (That old standby, atomic energy?)
Fred H.
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fherman1
Unregistered User
(9/22/02 5:33:20 pm)
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Savage Centaurs from Beyond
Helen:
Quote:
Ironically, the character of the centuar has come to uniformly figure as a teacher, when, in actuality, Chiron was the exception that proved the rule; in Greek myth, centuars originally symbolized savagery and the Other.
Interestingly, there've been several recent military science fiction novels presenting all-destroying centaur-like aliens as savage threats to human civilization: John Dalmas' _Soldiers_ and John Ringo's _A Hymn Before Battle_ come to mind. Obviously these aren't fairy tales per se, or even modern fantasy in any sense but that in which SF is a subset of it, but in a way this does seem like a hearkening back to the mythic model. Or even a combination of the two models--the terrible Other *and* the teacher/stargazer--since at least in these works, the centaurs in question are also the possessors of interstellar-level technologies and serve as the heads of empire. So a contemporary thread: the deadly threat and promising source of wisdom/power as one and the same? (That old standby, atomic energy?)
Fred H.
(fighting with the interface; forgive me if this gets double-posted by accident)
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Terri
Registered User
(9/23/02 12:38:30 am)
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Re: Savage Centaurs from Beyond
Hi, Fred! Welcome to the board!
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(9/23/02 5:07:51 am)
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my take on centaurs
If you can wait until 2004, my book JASON & THE HORGON'S BLOOD (Harper, part of my Young Heroes series) will come out. Jason was tutored by the wise Chiron, of course, but the bad guys in the story are the outlander centaurs, wild mountain men types who hate civilization.
Jane
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Helen
Registered User
(9/23/02 5:18:36 am)
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Welcome!
Dear Fred:
Welcome! I very much look forward t hearing more about this (i.e., borrowing your copies), as I find the idea of spacefaring centuars oddly intriguing. I can't stop picturing the space-suits ... which, frankly, just serves to underscore my ignorance.
"So a contemporary thread: the deadly threat and promising source of wisdom/power as one and the same?"
This sounds like a precise inversion of the more "enviro-friendly" version that you'll find in more fantasy-oriented versions ... somewhere in this, there's a thesis about the goals and natures of sf and fantasy, respectively.
Pondering the Matter as I Start the Day,
Helen
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fherman1
Unregistered User
(9/23/02 8:10:21 am)
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Thanks, and More Centaurs
Thanks for the welcome. (Unfortunately, I haven't copies of the books; I read them in manuscript back when I worked at Baen.)
"I can't stop picturing the space-suits ... which, frankly, just serves to underscore my ignorance." Not in the slightest. I should emphasize though, that these are centaur-*like* aliens, rather than actual centaurs--but I do like the image of actual centaurs in six-limbed spacesuits coming to teach us how to build starships.
You are touching on a prime difference between sf and fantasy, I think; on average, fantasy is about fitting in with/preserving the world as it is or as it's supposed to be (which certainly dovetails nicely with environmentalism), whereas sf is--often, not always--about creating or changing it. (In an sf retelling, the orcs might very well be *right*, knocking over an artificially imposed power structure and bringing in technology that'll, among other things, remove some of the intense social and racial divisions of Middle-Earth's tradition-bound society, which has barely changed in three millennnia-long Ages. Wil McCarthy did a great short piece for Scifi.com explaining all of Sauron's powers as advanced tech.)
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Ellen K
Unregistered User
(9/25/02 3:00:22 pm)
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Never mind the centaurs - back to College!
Thanks, Helen!
Our friend Davey Snyder, who's working on WFC Programming, replies:
<This is Helen Pilinovsky who presented that fascinating paper in the
"Transgressive Characters in Fairy Tales" panel at this past WisCon, yes?
She's living in NYC? (I ought to tip off the DC organizers of next year's
WFC that she should be tapped for program development, heh heh.)
I don't know of any plans to record the program this year. The only WFC
that I can remember taping panels was New Orleans. It's a
resource-intensive investment (either staff and equipment, or money to
hire in a commercial service, as N.O. did) and very few panels prove
worthy of being preserved for posterity... Only a handful of cassettes
were sold at N.O.
We -might- be able to manage something informally, if I can find someone
local who's willing to lend and sit with a recorder and if all of the
panelists agree. Let me think about that a bit.
>
So there it is - you'd better come to Mpls!
I'm told the programming committee fell on this idea with cries of joy. I shall sit in the audience and crow....
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Helen
Registered User
(9/25/02 7:17:13 pm)
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Gorgeous!
Dear Ellen:
How wonderful! I'm very excited (and quite flattered ... good to know that I made an impression, and in such august company, no less...). I definitely don't want to inconvenience anyone, so if taping presents any difficulties, consider the query withdrawn, please. I would *love* to be involved with next years WFC, so, by all means, please pass my e-mail address along if you like (hp2022@columbia.edu). As for this year ... sigh. I'm the stereotypical starving grad. student. Columbia has a policy of not funding students who have yet to pass their Oral defense, which is at least a year ahead of me, my budget won't handle plane fare, and, quite understandably, there doesn't appear to be anyone driving from NY to Minneapolis. I'm going to try to see if there are any other resources that I can tap, but I might have to be a no-show this time around, which is quite disappointing, as the line-up that you have planned sounds quite literally fantastic, and I have no idea if, say, Pam Dean or Caroline Stevermer plan to be at ICFA or WisCon. But, on the upside, there's always the glory of e-mail ...
Cries of joy, you say? Wheeeeeeee! [which is in no way mature or properly scholarly, but which *is* the only accurate manner of entirely conveying my reaction]
Best,
Helen
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