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Author
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Comment
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Court
Unregistered User
(9/20/02 6:51:30 pm)
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Bettelheim: What would the Grimm Brothers think?
I'm writing a paper on the symbolism in fairy tales and how they can be used to aid in a child's healthy development. My professor is having us read a collection of the Grimm Brothers tales and Bettelheim. I have a really hard time with Bettelheim's overtly strict use of the psychanalytic and psychosexual theory. Are there many folklorists today that subscribe to his thesis? I'm surprised my professor didn't give us another approach to read.
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Terri
Registered User
(9/20/02 10:52:09 pm)
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Re: Bettelheim: What would the Grimm Brothers think?
Most folklorists today dispute much of Bettleheim's work on fairy tales, and you are very right to question this as the single text for your class. If you look at this board's archives and do a search on Bettleheim, you'll find several interesting discussions on this very topic. When you've read them, if you still have questions or want to discuss the subject further, we'll be happy to do so.
Edited by: Terri at: 9/20/02 10:56:42 pm
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/21/02 9:46:48 pm)
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bettelheim/grimm's
This is a tough one in my opinion. For I think all made contribution,, and all have their challenges too. The brothers Grimm certainly shaped their tales, cutting out scatalogical and sexual references; and leaving matters of profound anti-Semetism in. Psychoanalytically, Bettelheim is interesting for being a proponent of classical Freudian analytical theory. I loved the title of his book, for which he won incidentally, high prizes, but as a woman, I found his interpretations to be typical "of his time," that is, not insightful about the real lives of real women.
There are currently many analysts, Jungian and Freudian and Adlerian and others, writing theory that cannot be applied to a real human's life. You might say some are a form of polemic, others a form of rhetoric, both. It seems an old-fashioned style to spin beautiful theory that may be ungrounded. For those who live in the world, it would be useful if theory were both pragmatic and useable at the same time.
With regard to Bettelheim, I am afraid there have also been credible charges against him for physical child abuse, particularly with regard to disabled children at his center.
It would be interesting to know what a contemporary Freudian psychoanalyst thinks of Bettelheim's work today, as all the "psychoanalyses" have evolved, just like fairytales do, over time and through cultural changes. I think that would be the fairest and the most enlightening... perhaps you could contact the nearest Freudian training institute and talk to an analyst. My hunch is they would be happy to give you an opinion just for the asking.
Finally, it might be useful to be aware that there has been a history of hostility between psychologists and folklorists, for reasons that have never made sense to me since I count many on both sides as valuable friends. Perhaps it had something to do with long ago rivalries that have been handed down to contemporary students to fight in the "old schools'" behalves.
hope this helps a lttle
cpe
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court
Registered User
(9/22/02 12:23:05 pm)
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Bettelheim
Thanks for the reply. I don't know for sure the cause of the friction between psychologist and folklorists. However, here's a guess: Maybe the folklorists get fed up with psychologists (especially psychananalyists) who solely look for symbols in folktales and fairy tales that justify what they see through their Freudian tinted glasses. Bettelheim seems to not give much thought to the socio-historical and socio-cultural theories - which many times contradict what he sees in the tales. I have done a bit of research on Bettelheim and his rather infamous reputation. Knowing what I know now about his past - his childhood, surviving the concentration camps, his questionable work with autistic children- a lot of his thoughts on the meaning behind The Grimms' tales makes sense. They makes sense in the context of his life. However, what he sees is not what I see now or what I saw when I was a child. He says in his introduction that the book should be "viewed as ... suggestive merely" and then he proceeds throughout the book to be so preachy.
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/22/02 2:40:21 pm)
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bettelheim
Dear Court: you clearly have looked into Bettelheim. Your points are well taken. It is only my two cent's worth, but I think how people see now and what they "saw" in tales in childhood are some of the most poignant indicators as to how they themselves might further develop interest in tales in their lifetime. There are many persons who think Bettelheim still speaks to them, to the way *they* see life. It is not the way I see. But it is the way *they* see. I am sure if one analyzed their backgrounds, one would see why and it would make sense. As a shrink myself, I try to understand the benefits people find in ideas that support their art, vitality and spirit. Having worked in prisons and in war zones and disaster sites, I am often taken with what others are called to that are significant to them, but which are not immediately understandable to others.
Just a couple more little noticitos-- coming from a non-literate background, I am often astonished by how much we all are offered in this modern era, in terms of books and viewpoints about narrative in every form, (tales being a small, small part,)--the mass alone seems to commission us to keep looking for what resonates with our particular set of intellectual and "heart" receptors. I tend to look at the plethora of ideas, guesses, inferences, et al, about what a tale might be, represent, indicate-- and just pause to admire the profound number of creative viewpoints availible— they are like a feast from and for the many different minds and spirits that exist on earth. In this sense, tales remind me of music . They cannot, no matter how any human or school of thought tries, be contained by any one idea or ideal. They leak if held too tightly, and they can transgress every kind of boundary set around or against them. For me, this means that story has a numinous core, that there is something to the entire concept that is supra rather than merely ordinary. But, that's another discussion, isn't it (grin)
I come from an oral tradition, from one of several groups of immigrant people that was "studied" by various folklorists and ethnologists, and there is still massive hostility from many of the "informants" ( worldwide as well) towards those who studied them for various reasons, and who took from them, often misunderstood and misinterpreted them, and did not look back. Because of my expereinces (and those of family and friends) on several sides of these issues about tales, I am for trying to guide people to ideas that fill them with happiness and generousity, instead of tenseness. There is something those of us both in and yet not of the culture try to understand and bridge; there has already been far and away enough wounding around what ought stand as just beauty alone. While it is true that some things cannot be changed in the past, I feel strongly we ought not contribute more to the offal heap than we can help in the present. When I met Angela Carter in the late 80s, I was solidified in this endeavor.
I was thinking maybe you would be interested in some of the things that Lacan (you would have to scan an index to see) said about mythos, and perhaps Freud himself rather than Bettelheim, such as his essay (long) called Moses and Monotheism. The thinking about reading "the old guys," as it will be with all our works someday, is that it will be an anachronistic eneavor, outside of "our time." So, one has to try to think like an 19th century Jewish-German male who lives in upper class circumstances in the time before electrical light, etc., in order to realize its tender nuances.
THis is likely way more than you ever wanted to peruse,
I hope this contributes a little,
cpe
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(9/22/02 9:05:13 pm)
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My 2 cents
If I may add this: storytellers know how protean and mutable stories are. Bettleheim (and alas, some psychologists--pax Clarissa, not you!) too often treat the stories as if they are fixed in time and space and have but a single immutable meaning. In this way they are like editors of text books who try to quantify the stories they print with questions at the end of the text that have only a single legitimate answer.
Jane
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/23/02 7:53:52 am)
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archives
ooops, I see what Terri Terez said now earlier on this discussion board, and last night I found on page 10 a discussion that looked very long about Bettelheim. I did not have time to peruse it, but it is there for you!
all best
cpe
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/23/02 8:33:08 am)
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child development
You had written about your writing a paper about symbolism in f.t. as an aid to child's HEALTHY development. I thought you might like to, if you do not already, know a bit about Kohut. There are others like Winnecott and of course Alice Miller who also speak about the formation and in Miller's case, the deformation of a child's spirit. Her “Drama of the Gifted Chld” is slightly anachronistic, but I think stands as an interesting set of insights that re APPLICABLE. Incidentally, she left the Freudian community even though she is one of the most pre-eminant Freudians alive.
Kohut has developed material about what he calls the "self-object" development in children, which indeed could be actualized as a favorite story for the child, or even the love of fairytales in general could become a self-object. Some psychoanalysts have posited that they see in patients a special attachment to one or more "stories" heard in childhood, and that the life pattern of the patients sometimes seems to follow that fairy tale's themes and leitmotifs very closely, including its conundrum and its lysis.
If you care to hear an example of how a self-object in a child causes harmony and how a self-object can also cause a profound conflagration, let me know. I do not want to be going on about things that are not really germane to what you are working on. I sense you would already have grounding in developmental psychology. In all, I hope YOU will develop your own theory on how symbolism can be an aid to a child’s healthy development. Then, rather than Freudian or anything else-ian, it will be Courtian! I hope this for all people who are willing to put in the work and rinse it through their greater selves...
I also like to read the work of others as I can. Do you have published work or about to be published work that has begun to lay out your praxis in this area of your interest?
all best
cpe
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court
Registered User
(9/23/02 10:07:06 am)
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Child Development
Thanks for the reply cpe. No, I do not have anything published. Actually, I'm in school studing speech pathology and language acquisition. My minor is Elementary Language Arts. However, I have taken many classes in Educational Psychology. I have skimmed Sheldon Cashdan's book, "The Witch Must Die", and I did enjoy his take on how children use fairy tales to enhance and make sense of their sense of self. Maybe they even use them throughout childhood as a reference point as they become better able to self-regulate their emotions. Fairy tales are presented to them in hyperbolic technicolor, but they can put themselves in the character's shoes. Further, as you go through life, you ultimately put yourself in the shoes of many different characters. If you still can only relate to the same character you did as a child, not much growth has occured. For example, in the story of Rapunzel, a child certainly would relate to Rapunzel and the curiousity that she was feeling as well as the loneliness that comes with being isolated from others. However, now as an adult, I can see why the witch did what she did. Yes, she was selfish, but she didn't want to be alone either. I'm guessing she had lived her life alone before Rapunzel and she never wanted to experience that again. Anyway, just a thought...
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/26/02 12:06:09 am)
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brand new bio on bettelheim
your thoughts court are good to read. and there is a brand new bio just out on bettelheim by his agent, who likely knew him quite well. it is a BIG book and has an entire chapter about "Uses of Enchantment" It says he did not think up his own title, another person did who had not read the mss. And that B. said writing the book was the easiest thing he did... amazing. Was thinking as I read that how intense and hard it is for me to write. He must have had a special angel.
let us know court how your paper is going.
Also I have one little grandchild who is in speech therapy. God bless the speech pathologists.
and one last thing, I had heard, if I remember this properly, I think Jack Zipes told me, that the "rapunzel" the herb the woman craved in the "witch's" garden, is a form of greenery, like lettuce, which was indeed used as tummy settler. Check me on this, for I am not completely sure my memory about this is correct.
all best
cpe
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