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Author
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Comment
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delin1
Registered User
(8/29/02 7:41:01 pm)
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beldame
I am trying to trace the origin of the following:
"like the beldame in the nursery-tale, he could have pinched himself, to see whether he waked or slept"
Does anyone know which tale this comes from?
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Midori
Unregistered User
(8/30/02 3:07:25 am)
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quotation enigma
I had to laugh reading this question because there is so little information to go on I be would utterly astonished at the board's brilliance if we solved this little puzzle. Then again...it's fun to try. It feel's too literary to be an old tale--the reference to the "beldame in the nursery tale" sounds more literary because it is an author's technique of evoking the traditional by referencing it--the beldame (a nanny?) may have been a storyteller (not to mention it also evokes the quaint image of the storyteller as a performer for children)--but the protagonist ("he") doesn't seem to be a character in a story--rather someone who imagines himself to be similiar to one.
any idea as to what is causing this state of story-book like wonder?
any one know the etymology for "beldame"? Feels like corrupted French (belle dame) so it's probably the British (on the order say of "bellibones" old English slang for a pretty woman--"belle et bonne"--though it could also be a British version of a Francofied story (the beldame giving the story a "frenchie" feel)
so...do you have money on this enigma? or is it just something rattling in your head like a song lyric you can't get rid of?
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(8/30/02 3:56:24 am)
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quote
the quote "Like the beldame in the nursery-tale, he could have pinched himself, to see whether he waked or slept" is in:
Australia Felix: First book in the trilogy - The Fortunes of Richard Mahony
by: Henry Handel Richardson (1870-1946), which is an eBook.
It is on what would equate to the 9th page, and you can find the whole text at:
www.gutenberg.net.au/0100051.txt
It was quite easy to figure out!
Cheers,
Katie
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yellow McMaggie
Unregistered User
(8/30/02 4:02:38 am)
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Oops!
Sorry, I think that your question kind of flew over my head! You were asking for the name of the tale that the author was referring to? I feel like such an idiot right now. So, maybe just ignore my previous post, because I don't have the slightest clue which tale that would be. Sorry.
Katie
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(8/30/02 4:35:33 am)
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Re: Oops!
Midori, you asked about the etymology of the word 'beldame'. It comes from Middle English 'beldam' for grandmother. And further broken down, it is from Middle French 'bel' (beautiful) + Middle English 'dam'
I'm only replying to this topic for the 3rd(!) time, because I am in the process of re-reading Marina Warner's "From the Beast to the Blonde", who extensively talks about women storytellers and gossips.
Upon reflection, I am beginning to doubt whether that quote refers to a tale in particular, or whether it is just a general statement about women storytellers. According to my dictionary a beldame also means "An ugly, frightening old woman: crone, hag, witch. Slang : biddy"
Ths reminds me of a quote that I had just written down from "From the Beast to the Blonde":
"Both the linguistic link between godmothers and old gossips, and the social link between ageing women and secret, wicked powers, are crucial in the world of fairy tale..." (p.48 ) .
That quote is perhaps highly irrelevant, but it helps me to better picture a "beldame". So, I am thinking that the protagonist in the story is just having a hard time trying to figure out what is or isn't his current reality, just like and old story teller, telling a story that "could have happened" or that "could be true".
Okay, I feel as though I am running in circles right now with this.
That was my final reply!
Katie
Edited by: Yellow McMaggie at: 8/30/02 4:37:12 am
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Jess
Unregistered User
(8/30/02 6:41:40 am)
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specifics?
The quote refers to the beldame being IN the nursery tale and pinching herself - not telling the nursery tale. So she is probably not the storyteller, but rather a character in it. Given that, I think that she probably fits the old crone definition. Now, we must determine if there are any stories where an old woman/crone pinches herself to stay awake or determine if she is awake. Is she in a dream like land - between wake and sleep? Since the word is middle English, we need not assume it is a French tale. The author is late enough that even exotic tales might fit, which leads me to laugh, but be intrigued.
It is possible that it is just a general, non-specific reference, but somehow it brings to mind a Babi Yaga type character. I am not sure why. And aren't there similar character in Greek mythology. Again - I am not sure why I think this.
Jess
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Yellow
McMaggie
Registered User
(8/30/02 7:16:34 am)
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Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga, yes, I can see that, but I am unable to think of any specific tale. Hmmm.... I, too, can see that quite well.
Back to Storytellers.... Yes, the original quote did include the word IN! (Beldame in the nursery-tale).
I was perhaps thinking of how when a teller of a tale unconsciously enters the tale and participates as a sort of 'unseen' protagonist. That would be like a story teller leaving his/her own personal mark on the narrative of the tale, adding something personal to it (often a change that relates to changes in society), or it may be by appending morals to the end of the tale.
I'm still running around in circles around this quote. I doubt that I will ever figure it out. It is good for thought though.
Katie
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Rebecca
Unregistered User
(8/31/02 5:37:10 am)
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quote source?
I thought this seemed like a *possible* source of the quote. If you go to this website and scroll down to where it says "KING ARTHUR AND HIS ENCHANTED KNIGHTS", just above this it says that this tale was told 'as a nursery tale to children' ... then, if you don't want to read the whole story, scroll down to the paragraph that begins 'And in the evening, when the moonlight...'
It seems to be about a 'beldame' who saw Arthur and his knights enchanted by the 'witch Vivian.' It doesn't say directly, in this version anyway, that the beldame pinched herself, but she seems to be in a situation in which this could likely happen. I didn't think I was totally reaching with this, but perhaps I am...
www.red4.co.uk/Folklore/trevelyan/glimpse/traditions.htm
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delin1
Registered User
(9/3/02 8:43:55 pm)
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beldame - sorry too vague
sorry, sorry - i wasn't very clear.
yes, the original quote is from "the fortunes of richard mahony"...
we're putting together a critical edition of this text and i'm writing the endnotes.
what i need to reference is where the situation of a beldame pinching herself originates. i've browsed the net, fairy tales, nursery rhymes (mostly iona opie's collections) and other sources and *can't find it anywhere*! i'm going mad!
thanks heaps for the replies so far ...
it's so silly. the pinching yourself to see if you're awake has become such a *cliche* but there seems to be no source ...
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/4/02 8:41:18 pm)
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Beldam
I have gone through my Greek mythology after thinking in the back of my mind I had read something in it. Like you, I failed to find anything. I will continue to check my limited resources. When is your deadline?
Jess
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delin1
Registered User
(9/4/02 8:51:57 pm)
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thanks...
i have no immediate deadline, i'll be working on this for another few months at least. it's just *bugging* me, and i have to find it anyway...
thanks! i hadn't even considered *ancient* mythology, i was silly enough to be taking richardson fairly literally. i'll go back and have a look at that stuff. maybe ovid's metamorphoses?
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/4/02 9:13:24 pm)
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Thought this might be of interest
www.ayrshireroots.com/Tow...itches.htm
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/4/02 9:20:04 pm)
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Previous posting
The term "beldame" seems to be used a lot with reference
to witches and banshees. Here is a thought: is it possible it is
a witch character. The previous posting talked about an ordeal for
"witches" in which they were not allowed to sleep - possible
reference to the "pinching herself to see if she was awake?
Let's see where else we can go with this one. I am intrigued myself
now.
Jess
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Midori
Unregistered User
(9/5/02 3:17:14 am)
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nursery tale
Hey a thought occured to me that it might be more of a Mother Goose moment? The "nursery tale" might not be a folk/fairy tale but a Mother Goose sort of tale. After all, we can pull up all kinds of characters from those stories that have an almost immediate recognition...and the author may have been counting on our familiarity with those tales...(which if it turns out your line is there would be ironic because none of us would have recognized it any more)
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/5/02 6:22:52 am)
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Nursery rhyme
Hey Midori,
Welcome to the thread. When I check nursery rhymes I came back empty handed, but I don't have as complete a collection.
I had another thought too. There is an old English folktale that is the source for Rip van Winkle. The couple of versions I have read have an old woman looking at the sheppard in disbelief when he first reenters the town - and then alerting the townsfolk as to his identity. Perhaps a version of this tale (I can't remember its name though)? Anyone out there?
Jess
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delin1
Registered User
(9/5/02 4:56:08 pm)
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the plot thickens...
so many leads ...
as to the nursery rhyme thing - i've had a look though *hundreds* and can't find a thing. the collections i've seen have a distinct english bias, though.
here's the deal with richardson (the author of the excerpt): she was born in australia, left at 17 for germany and spent the last fifty years of her life in london. she is writing about an gentleman irishman who emigrated to australia in 1850.
her tendency is to fit the incidentals of the story to the situation, but she sometimes makes mistakes. with this in mind, following Jess's suggestion, i've looked at irish folktales and found nothing. i can't get a hold of a non-irving rip van winkle but will keep trying. thanks!
richardson was highly nostalgic so the likelihood is that the story is an english folktale or nursery rhyme or fairy tale. however she spoke several languages (including german, danish, norweigan, italian and french) so it is possible though unlikely that this is the origin. but she hasn't elsewhere made any european reference - she was fairly aristocratic in her tastes - she read european *literature* not folktales...
sorry about longwindedness!
just had a thought - what about alice in wonderland?
thanks again!
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Midori
Unregistered User
(9/6/02 3:38:53 am)
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invention?
There is also the chance that she simply used her author's perogative and invented a lovely little image--a chance to use a grand word like "beldame"--which Dickens used a good bit, among other literary British writers. She also might have liked the idea of combining the slightly silly or quaint and female as a counter to the male character evoking it as a way of suggesting the man's own incredulity at his feelings of the moment. Perhaps we should give her some credit for being inventive?
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/6/02 5:35:26 am)
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Not Alice
According to my Annotated version of Alice, it was written after a "golden afternoon", July 4, 1862. "Through the Looking Glass" is 1896.
Invention? Quite possibly.
As for Rip van Winkle, I am certain there is an English folktale with this motif (sleeping for years - male - waking up and being recognized), possibly with the bowling in it.
Jess
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Jess
Unregistered User
(9/6/02 5:36:35 am)
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Or did I get your dates wrong
What year was it published?
Jess
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(9/6/02 3:21:05 pm)
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etymology: beldame, belle dam, good woman, dame goody
just two cents worth, but can look at word beldame in relationship to belsire, its masc equiv, and neither mean, at least fr 15th century forward , 'fair lady,' but rather can be understood positively in many cases; also see word 'goody' as in dame goody, a name for a certain kind of old woman.
hope this might contribute
cpe
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delin1
Registered User
(9/8/02 3:08:45 pm)
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invention?
the thing about richardson in this book is, in the incidentals, she invented *nothing*! you'd be amazed how pedantic she is - down to finding out what brand hair-grease would be stocked at this place in this time!
so ... highly unlikely that it was invented - in the case of richardson, anyway. if it was any other author i'd put it down to imagination or half-forgotten schooldays or something. but she plays games with the reader. she was highly elitist and gives half-references which have enormous meaning, as long as you know the same things she does.
the novel was published in 1917.
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