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Author
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Comment
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Matty
Unregistered User
(9/29/02 7:26:00 pm)
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What is the name?
Does anyone know the name of the german fairy tale in which a boy lets his nails grow so long, they chop his fingers off.
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Helen
Registered User
(9/29/02 8:44:32 pm)
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Slovenly Peter ...
I believe that the tale that you have in mind may be "Slovenly Peter." Jack Zipes and Maria Tatr have both done amazing work on this that's worth looking into. Hope this helps!
Best,
Helen
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Lotti
Unregistered User
(9/29/02 11:23:47 pm)
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That should be it
This really does sound like "Struwwelpeter" or slovenly Peter, though I didn't find the chopping off the fingers part. The Story comes from the late-19th century and was written by a physician from Frankfurt - there are countless variants and parodies on the book around and in Frankfurt, there is even a little Struwwelpeter-Museum.
Why don't you check:
www.fln.vcu.edu/struwwel/struwwel.html
www.rma.de/eng-rmaweb/kul...er-eng.htm
www.naughtykitty.org/struwwelpeter2.html
www.stub.uni-frankfurt.de...alerie.htm
Regards, Lotti
(born in Frankfurt, so this is special to me - even if I hated the book as a child - I found it rather frightening)
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janeyolen
Unregistered User
(9/30/02 3:30:49 am)
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Me, too
I hated the book as a child, too. I bit my nails and there is a nasty story there in which a man with a scissors came to snip off the fingers of anyone who bit their nails.
Scard the jhpouiho out of me.
Jane
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Lizzi
Unregistered User
(9/30/02 5:14:12 am)
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Oh not him ...
Me too - the whole book used to give me nightmares. My mother is Austrian and I had a German language version of it and she would read the tales to me. I used to turn the book cover over and bury it under a pile of books for fear of all the nasty entities within escaping and mutilating me at night.
I sucked my thumb and my mother insisted that one day the Tailor
would get me and chop them both off. The picture of Peter used to
terrify me - he still gives me nightmares. If anyone has children,
I would suggest that unless you have sadistic streak (like my mother)
or they are so badly behaved that you somehow need to scare them
(and even then I think this book goes too far) you do not let them
near this book.
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Lotti
Unregistered User
(9/30/02 1:06:59 pm)
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Thank you, Ladies
Jane and Lizzi,
I am so glad you two wrote that! I always felt bad for not liking the book, as it is considered quite a classic over here, though a controversial one. Of course there has been all kinds of debate on wether or not it is something children should read. - I still find it cruel today and would never ever let a child near it.
Greetings, Charlotte
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eearth
Registered User
(9/30/02 2:09:12 pm)
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Struwwelpeter
Struwwelpeter has terrorized 4 generations of my family, although my son wasn't exposed to it as a child and was able to laugh at the wonderful production of "Shockheaded Peter" that was in San Francisco last year. If you know Struwwelpeter at all and you have a chance to go see Shockheaded Peter, by all means do so because it's incredible.
You're talking about two different tales here -- one is the boy who sucked his thumb and the tailor comes to cut it off, and then there's Struwwelpeter himself, who has the slovenly habits and winds up with shocking hair and long nails.
My "favorite" was the girl who's told not to play with matches and then of course does, and there's a lovely illustration of her burning up while some kitties say, in effect, "That's what you get for not listening . . . "
My son couldn't get over the one about the boy who wouldn't eat what was put in front of him, and he was given the same thing day after day and he refused and refused until he eventually died. He said, why would parents give the kid something over and over that he obviously didn't like? And I said, you should have grown up in *my* house . . .
Elise
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Nalo
Registered User
(10/9/02 6:54:01 am)
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Re: Struwwelpeter
I know Der Struwwelpeter as an historical collection of German cautionary tales meant to scare the bejesus out of small children. It's quite disturbing. If I'd read it as a kid, I'd still be having the nightmares, not to mention assorted tics. I worked for nine years in the North York Public Library in Toronto, where they do a lot of thinking about how to present material like this in the Children's collection--i.e. stuff that has historical value but distressing content. "Little Black Sambo" was included on the list. When I was working for the library, what they decided to do with these books was to have them in the collection, but keep them in a special reference spot where people had to ask for them expressly. Interestingly enough, though they kept the English language version of "Der Struwwelpeter" there, they did not originally put the German language version there (that policy may have changed, I dunno). When I asked why not, the answer basically was that German-speaking folks are used to it and wouldn't find it shocking. Right.
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Richard
Parks
Registered User
(10/9/02 8:01:14 am)
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Re: Struwwelpeter
I actually did read a version of that book in second grade. It had been translated under the title "Pepper and Salt." I remember finding it horrid but fascinating. It helped that I realized the warnings were nonsense, but the fantastical element was attractive. And those pictures!
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(10/9/02 3:43:01 pm)
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another take
just two cent's worth; re such violence in tales; it depends on WHEN you tell such a tale to a child; if they are still in the conretizing stage of perception and cognition, then for certain it will frighten them for it will be perceived as an introject; that is, a thought placed into them without their permission or volition. They are highly inclined then to feel at its mercy rather than in charge. As children grow older and change to a more abstract way of thinking, they also differentite more and more between images that are scary "out there" which affect them viscerally, rather than scary from the "inside out.' Not sure I have explained this in layperson's terms well enough, but that is the main caution about images of certain kinds for little children.
If you have ever seen a troup of CONTEMPORARY eight year old boys trying to outgross each other with scary images they see in film for instance, that is a very different set of resources they are using to deal with arousal/anxieties than the ones a little child would be able to have. A little child has almost no defenss against what is "placed into them." They have no sorting function like the one older children are learning. There is a great deal more to this.
In a 35 page intro to Grimms Tales for a Book of the Month club and Quality Paperback Book editions of the Collected Tales, I covered some of this. I was working on the premise that if parents know better and other ways, they will do better by their children. There are, as we all know, lots of ways to shape children "to behave." Scaring them when they have no defenses is one of the most egregious. It is equivalent to poisoning a part of the psyche so that it cannot think rationally, and sometimes not imaginatively either, as the ego sets up a censor to the memories held in that part of the psyche.
with cariņo,
cpe
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Midori
Unregistered User
(10/9/02 4:34:59 pm)
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Goops
Cpe,
Do you know that bizarre little victorian book about the Goops? It was intended as an etiquette book--but the goops were strange enough to construct an odd fantasy frame? They had no hair, looked like weird versions of Casper the ghost and often behaved quite badly--which is what made them so wonderful. As a child I cared less for the instruction in etiquette (and the consequences of bad behavior) I reveled in the multiple ways one could be considered bad--all of which seemed like fun to me.
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(10/9/02 5:09:38 pm)
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the goops
mi Midori
aside from thinking how badly I spelled so much in my last post, you are generous to reply.
From your story of the goops I can see you were just the kind of little girl we all wish we had ten of. Truly.
There was also this ucky feature in Children's Activities, a magazine for little heathens, actually for the over-civilized mothers of little heathens, that was called Daffy and Dandy. Dandy always did thinkgs right (and had blonde hair --part of the reason I love "yo-lin's" "brown Haired princess," even though my hair once was black -- but now is crone-red --cackle, cackle) and Daffy of course being "bad" had black hair. They were drawn as stick figures with big baloon heads and all I remember is how badly I felt for Daffy for he was advenurous and imaginative. Dandy, forgive me for being uncharitable, was truly dorky. (grin) We all knew kids like him in school who somehow always looked like they had just stuck in their thumb and pulled out a plum. We were more likely to be looking like we just had a subversive thought. (grin)
con cariņo,
cpe, expert in invented spelling
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Jess
Unregistered User
(10/9/02 5:33:57 pm)
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Humor?
Cpe,
A question: at what point to children see the humor in exaggerated fingernails and threats found in these stories. I know that these stories are meant to scare, but they also can be read with a different delivery. I had to laugh when I read them because I often tease my children when they have a minor boo-boo that is causing great hysteria that "it is really bad - we will need to chop of <insert body part here>". This inevitably leads to laughter and the "event is over". When I read the story about the boy biting his nails, it reminded me of this. I remember making similar remarks to my nailbiter - who laughed hysterically. It didn't make him stop, but he thought it was funny not scary - even at 5.
Rather than terrorize this particular story would cause great analysis and humor in this bizarre household.
Jess (also missing the spelling gene)
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pinkolaestes
Registered User
(10/9/02 6:07:44 pm)
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little ones
Dear Jesse --missing spelling gene in-common person:
We think IN GENERAL it depends on when the child is able to realize the difference between fantasy and reality; different children come out of the "concrete" stage of thinking about age 4-6, or older when they are not exposed to demythologizers, such as older kids who deride them, who for instance like to tell younger children that there is no Santa, for instance. (there isn't??? some of us are truly remedial) (grin)
Also, as I mentioned before, it is more complex than can say in
a few sentences, but the child's constitution matters too, their
basic sensitivity; some children are unfazed by alot (and often
cannot grasp why others are), yet others "record" everything
deeply (and wonder why some others do not). Often in later life,
each kind of child needs to learn a bit more of his or her opposite,
at least if they want to be with, learn to cherish a lot of different
kind of people--who are not the same as they are. There is on top
of this how the parents train the child too, although it is hard
to turn a sunflower into a tulip.
What you are describing is a very nice what is sometimes called complimentary parent-child relationship, where the temperament of the child often matches the tone, mood and pacing (including humor style) of the parent.
con cariņo,
cpe
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Jess
Unregistered User
(10/9/02 8:03:44 pm)
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Thanks!
Cpe,
Your comments are always enlightening. I hope others can view these stories more humorously now.
Jess
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Nalo
Registered User
(10/15/02 7:35:25 pm)
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Re: Thanks!
Thanks from me, too, CPE. When I read your comments about the "concretizing" stage, they made a lot of intuitive sense. I have never been able to safely watch horror and thriller movies. Just a glimpse of a spooky image and it feels real. I get shaky and scared and I find that I can't be alone for a few days. Angry e-mails in my inbox can weird me out for a long time and make me afraid to even turn on my computer, because it feels as though someone has gotten into my head and is making my brain yell those horrible things at me IN MY VOICE. It's very creepy. I've not had a whole lot of luck trying to describe my reaction to people, but your description felt dead on.
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Nalo
Registered User
(10/15/02 7:36:39 pm)
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Re: Thanks!
Needless to say, I was the type of child who would have been terrorized half to death by the stories of poor Little Suckathumb and his peers.
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