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Author
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Comment
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Sapeloe
Unregistered User
(6/28/02 8:53:41 am)
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River Folklore
I'm interested in folklore connected with rivers. In particular, I'm trying to compile a list of spirituals, hymns, and folk songs that contain the River Jordan or rivers in general. Any titles would be appreciated, but also any insights into rivers as an archetype. Thanks!
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Midori
Unregistered User
(6/28/02 11:30:22 am)
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Rivers
Hmm..my first thought is to the river Styx--the river the dead must cross in Greek mythology to get into Hades (rather the river Jordan's promise of heaven.). Herodotus claimed that the River Styx was in Arcadia and that the Arcadians took oaths by the waters of the Styx which was belived to have harmful properties. Actually the Greeks had a lot of river Gods...check out any good classical mythology dictionary.
I also think there is a river in Lethe--the place of forgetting in the Greek underworld--where to drink the waters is to forget ones former life in the world above.
There's lots of great folklore around the Nile as well.
since you are interested in the music/spirituals...have you looked at any of the old Alan Lomax collections of American folksongs? Those are rather interesting and might yield more versions of songs with the image of the river Jordan.
sorry this seems a bit scattered... it's hot here.
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(6/29/02 2:08:35 am)
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River books
There's a book I have used (sorry--it's in Scotland not here, so can't) about British spirits of rivers, springs, and wells.
There are also several very good books about "Negro" spirituals. Lots of crossing over Jordan songs there.
Jane
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catja1
Registered User
(6/29/02 9:11:39 am)
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Re: River books
There's several English ballads that involve rivers. "Lady Isabella and the Elfin Knight" features a lady who drowns a murderous would-be suitor, and "Two Sisters" likewise features drowning in a river. Also, the first stanza of the ballad "The Grey @#%$":
"I must be going, no longer staying,
The burning Thames I have to cross,
I must be guided without a stumble
Into the arms of my own dear lass."
You might also want to check out Briggs and Tongue, _Forgotten Folktales of England_; there's some information about the river Derwent, which is said to require a sacrifice, and is actively murderous. There's also one in Scotland, whose name escapes me right now.
Catja
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Helen
Registered User
(6/29/02 7:32:24 pm)
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Re: River books
There are a good many Russian ballads that deal with river spirits - vodanoi and rusalkas. I have a book that contains a number of them, which I believe is titled _Russian Folk Ballads_. It's at my new apartment (which I have yet to move into) but I'll check the exact wording and author, as well as the contents, as soon as I get the chance.
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Laura
Registered User
(6/30/02 12:03:44 am)
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Greek rivers
Midori brought up Styx and Lethe -- the other Greek rivers in the underworld were Acheron (woe), Phlegethon (flaming), and Cocytus (wailing or lamentation). They are all over Greek texts.
What ground have you covered already, so we don't repeat? The obvious images are those of the inexorable journey and of rebirth.
Laura S.
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Terri
Registered User
(6/30/02 1:23:11 am)
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Re: Greek rivers
The rivers in Devon, UK, where I live, have many stories associated with them about dangerous water faeries, or nixies. The rivers themselves can be cruel and dangerous, taking annual sacrifices in the form of drowning, A local rhyme is: "Dart, Dart, cruel River Dart, every year thou takest a heart."
For an article on water lore in general, try: www.endicott-studio.com/forwatr.html.
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(6/30/02 2:25:24 am)
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Dumb me!
I just published a book (how could I forget!!!) called THE FISH PRINCE and Other Merman Stories (Interlink) which has some twenty folk stories and LOTS AND LOTS of information about mermen from around the world, including some of the river spirits. In fact the bulk of the book is informational about male river, well, pool, and ocean spirits.
<Strikes forehead with palm of hand. Duh!>
Jane
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Lotti
Unregistered User
(6/30/02 6:18:06 am)
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Good old father Rhine... ;o)
In Germany, there are loads of songs and stories connected to the
river Rhine - maybe the most famous "fairy tale" being
that of the Lorelei, with a very famous and popular ballad by Heinrich
Heine. Have a look at: www.loreley-rhine.com/
They have a link to a site with the text of the ballad, and even
a translation by MARK TWAIN (!) also on: www.loreley.de/loreley/marctwai.htm
Of course, there are all the tales from the Middleages about the "Nibelungen", Sigfried&Co. that horrible Richard Wagner used for a number of his operas. The Rhine itself features prominently in those. There are also the "Daughters of the Rhine".
And now for something completely different - in (as far as I remember mostly) Asian fairy tales, there are cities and kingdoms under water, and the hero or heroine is taken there by a serpent, which becomes human under water, or by a dragon (in China).
Just to add my two-pennies-worth'.
Lotti
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(6/30/02 7:13:55 am)
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Salmon and rivers
There is a tremendous amount of material from the north Pacific coast on salmon in connection with rivers. I should say "coasts" -- it's found on the Siberian side as well, though I'm far less familiar with that material.
Some has resonance with classical myth - stories of supernaturals who turned themselves into rivers, for example. Then there're the stories of how rivers, and salmon runs, came to be in the first place (usually Raven did it). There are hereditary rights to fish in certain rivers, or in certain spots on rivers, to say the first prayers to the first fish to arrive in the river in a particular run, and so on. Rivermouths have power -- salmon can come back to life if their remains are disposed of there.
There is also a notion of the rivers and ocean as together forming a great World River, with a lot of cosmological stuff attached, and various implications as to life and death on the model of the immortal and reincarnating salmon. I look at this, with lots of references to folklore and myth, in an article in BC STUDIES 125/126 (2000), called "Red Salmon and Red Cedar Bark."
Judith
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Victoria
Elisabeth
Registered User
(6/30/02 2:07:15 pm)
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Re: Salmon and rivers
And don't forget St. Christoper!
According to my old Medieval Studies professor, St. Christoper was huge, slow, ugly guy (a "hound-headed saint) who spent his days carrying travellers across a river somewhere in the British Isles. His cult arose when local people decided that this dependable fellow must also have ferried Christ.
Apparently, some early writings about him describe him as being "healf hundisces mancynnes," or half man and half hound. This has given rise to speculation about lycanthropy.
Another important bit of river folklore is the story of La Llorona. There are many versions of the tale, all centering around a young woman who, out of jealousy or anger, drowns her babies in river. She's said to haunt the river, crying for her murdered children, and sightings have been reported throughout Mexico and the American Southwest.
Edited by: Victoria Elisabeth at: 6/30/02 4:11:14 pm
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Helen
Registered User
(6/30/02 7:50:54 pm)
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Ys ...
Also, perhaps the drowned city of Ys might be relevant?
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sapeloe
Unregistered User
(7/6/02 12:36:56 pm)
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Wonderful!
I want to thank you all so much! This was just the sort of thing I needed. Ya'll are a wonderful resource.
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(7/8/02 8:55:25 am)
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Mary Magdalen and river monsters
Just a vague recollection that in French medieval lore, Mary Magdalen traveled to France and defeated various river monsters through her spiritual powers.
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zeppelin42
Registered User
(7/13/02 9:54:17 pm)
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River monster
I remember an old tale, though I cannot back it up, about the River Rhein, and how the wife of Chief Claudion (I believe that was his name) was bathing in the river when impregnated by a water-monster. Their son was Merovech, the fisher-king of the Rhein, and his descendants ruled Germany and France until the supplantation of the Carolignians. To hear it another way, Claudion was a Jewish Chief along the Rhein, and the rivers of the land supplanted his seed in Germany. Are there any other Germans out there who remember the story?
Zep
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