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Author
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Comment
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shadowmann
Unregistered User
(6/19/02 9:24:40 am)
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Most psychologically important fairy tales or fables.
I am thinging of doing a compendium of the most psychologically important fairy tales, fables or myths ever written. I was interested in everyone's opinion of what stories are the most important in a child's psychological development.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/19/02 9:39:47 am)
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Psychological stories
Shadowman,
I am also interested in this topic for the article several of us are working on. I haven't done the studies, but several are usually cited (Little Red Riding Hood, the Frog Prince, etc) . It depends partially on the age of the children and their circumstances. Certainly there is much written on this topic. Is there a particular aspect you are interested in? Are you looking for "authoritative" opinions or just thoughts from this audience?
Jess
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shadowmann
Unregistered User
(6/19/02 1:16:02 pm)
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psychological stories
Actually, I was looking for everyone's opinion, authoritive and anyone else who might have a opinion on which children's tales might have the most positve influence in a child's development. I was thinking maybe Beauty and the Beast and The Ugly Duckling. However, I wasn't too sure about Little Red Riding Hood.
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isthmus
nekoi
Registered User
(6/19/02 4:46:44 pm)
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Re: psychological stories
I'm by no means an expert, but I think the social context of where the child is growing up in would best determine the most important tales. b/c of the highly symbolic and archetypal nature of fairy tales, they have the ability to hilight important values or attitudes etc that are being marginalized in mainstream culture. For example, I think stories w/strong girls would be positive b/c of their relative absence in mainstream media today.
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ChrisCalabrese
Registered User
(6/19/02 8:57:17 pm)
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Re: psychological stories
If a child is physically abused by her mother, Hansel and Gretel allows the child a safe expression of the horror and empowerment by pushing the witch in the oven.
Positive is relative to the child's reality.
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Jess
Unregistered User
(6/19/02 9:47:01 pm)
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Other tales
One of the stories that seems to have an impact on its readers is The Juniper Tree. It seems somewhat obscure compared to some of the other tales mentioned here, but I think it is a good story of empowerment and faith (not of the religious sort). Which leads me to a question that has been in the back of my mind for a while: if a child doesn't know the "stronger" version (or for that matter ANY version) of a fairy tale, can the tale possibly have as positive an impact? While Disney's Cinderella is certainly cute and fun to watch, it waters down the strength of its original character. Ditto Snow White where "revenge" or "cruel justice" is not a factor in the sanitized version. This can be said of many "nice" versions of fairy tales, not just Disney, children encounter these days. I find this such an anomoly when kids encounter so much gratuitous violence in other media.
Another thought here - should a fairy tale have to have a psychological impact on its reader? It seems that many of the tales "might" have an impact on some readers, but not on others. And most certainly the impact would differ again based on age and circumstances (and versions of the tales?).
Oops, back on my rampage again.
Jess
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Gregor9
Registered User
(6/20/02 6:19:01 am)
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Re: Other tales
Jess raises a good point, and I'd go further with it. I do agree with the notion that the meaning of the story will change depending upon the individual. Part of the strength of the tales is their immediate access to the "hind-brain", the way they speak directly to the unconscious. Whether or not you want to go all Jungian on that depends on whether you want to haul archetypes into the discussion. I tend to believe that their potency comes from this link to the unconscious--and therefore are sort of by definition psychologically potent. It's built-in.
But one example of their potency regardless of perspective is the Bettelheim example (sorry, but he works here) of the boy who related positively to Mother Gothel in "Rapunzel" because he'd been raised by his grandmother, and so had a different interpretation of the meaning of the story than I certainly would. Different interpretation, but as valid psychologically as any.
To decide which of them is the most psychologically potent, you'd need to address the language of fairy tales first--and I won't even pretend to that kind of expertise. However, I believe there are lots of books addressing this sort of question.
Greg
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(6/21/02 2:43:15 am)
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Different takes on old subjects
Greg--my daughter's response to Rapunzel is different as well because she is the adoptived mother of a foster child who is now 19!!!
Jane
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Judith
Berman
Registered User
(6/21/02 7:27:45 am)
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Re: Most psychologically important fairy tales or fables.
The original post asks about myths as well as fairy tales, and in a way this is easier to answer (or at least easier for *me* to opine about!). In a real myth-based society -- by which I mean, among other things, that myths are what define and describe the world and that there is a great deal of connectedness via myth between various levels of culture and society -- there is a relatively limited body of narrative that members of the society, adults and children, have experience of, at least until TV arrives. The "core" myths of the worldview often stand out in flashing neon, for example the Navajo Creation story, and these are the ones so psychologically powerful that they are used in shamanic curing (e.g., Navajo singers). They are so powerful that they *change the world.*
Most of us in the west don't live in a myth-based society (though I think you could make an argument for fundamentalist Christians). We don't even, most of us, live in a society where fairy tales are a living oral-literary tradition. We have myths and fairy tales uprooted from the original cultural matrix where they had their real power. They are now bits and pieces floating in a huge sea of narratives that compete for children's attention. That doesn't mean they aren't still powerful, but "psychologically most important" is a functional question that could only be answered by looking at the totality of particular children's experience of narrative. It's just not like a society where the stories are entertainment and instruction together, and children sit with grandma or grandpa night after night from infancy and have the stories told to them over and over, and some stories are acted out in communal rituals every week or year, and some are painted on your house or tattooed on your mom or dad...
"Psychologically most important" is a different question, I think, when you're asking it of writers and artists who are interested in the stories as source material! For me, there are certain ballads or stories that just stick, sometimes just mere elements of them, episodes or certain characters, and my hindbrain worries over them until it can do something with them. And those change as my life changes. They don't have much to do with stories I read as a child. That's part of the magic of traditional literature, and I think -- even considering what I said above about "core" myths -- that it's far more true in traditional societies. The stories have so many literary and psychological uses, so many different possible tellings inside them.
Judith
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Marsha
Sisolak
Registered User
(6/23/02 7:25:41 am)
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Re: Most psychologically important fairy tales or fables.
I'm going to jump in here based on my experiences as a parent and teacher. I can't say I've studied fairytales in any great depth, however, other than reading this forum and a few scholarly articles.
I'm going to agree with Jess that the tales vary in importance to the child based on the child's age.
From my experience, I find that The Three Bears, The Three Little Pigs, and Little Red Riding Hood have the biggest impact on the youngest children. I have found that my own children loved the first two tales so much that they could hear them again and again, whether told aloud or read from a book. That certainly lasts through kindergarten, because all of the children in my classes who have been exposed to them join in the retellings with great enthusiasm.
The Three Bears teaches us not to take things that don't belong to us. (And I rather wonder if the original ending wasn't that Goldilocks escaped, but that she got eaten. Presumably though, she's a wiser Goldilocks at the end.)
The Three Little Pigs teaches us that there are bullies in the world -- bullies who want to 'eat' us. But it also says that there are ways that we can outsmart them -- and banding together can be one of those ways, as is building a very strong 'house'.
For the slightly older ones, there's Little Red Riding Hood, who, being an adventuresome child, ventures forth into the woods against her mother's advice. There we discover that Mother really does know what's best, and never talk to strangers.
(And yes, there is subliminal text going on, but at these ages, all they appear to get is the surface story.)
While these are the tales appropriate for the youngest children, I also believe that there are others designed to reach older age groups, too. Think about the original version of The Little Mermaid, and how she gives up everything for the prince, even saving his life, and he never even knows it. For a child of seven or eight, especially a girl who is most likely to appreciate it, this resounds with all sorts of warnings about choosing the one you love over yourself.
There are others. The Ugly Duckling. Snow White, which appeals to the four-year old/five-year old crowd, and I have to admit that the moral of that one has been completely obscured by Disney, since the original version appears to me to focus more on the stepmother's punishment at the end, rather than on the happy ever after of the wedding.
As a writer, I return to the fairy tales to add my experiential base, from an adult's standpoint, to twist the stories.
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Laura
Unregistered User
(6/23/02 8:32:02 pm)
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The Little Mermaid
Marsha, you commented: "Think about the original version of The Little Mermaid, and how she gives up everything for the prince, even saving his life, and he never even knows it. For a child of seven or eight, especially a girl who is most likely to appreciate it, this resounds with all sorts of warnings about choosing the one you love over yourself."
I'm not so sure about that. The tale had a _huge_ impact on me as a girl, but right away I saw Andersen's message as in conflict with how I'd been brought up. As you say, we tend to want to see the message as "don't choose a boy over your own needs." That is not what Andersen is saying. He quite obviously, and compellingly, *rewards* the mermaid for her behavior, giving her a chance at an immortal soul -- supposedly far more important than mortal dignity and happiness. Personally, I seem to recall the mermaid as always wanting the soul more than the boyfriend, which even as a child I thought strange. We are NOT supposed to feel sad when she dies -- that's supposed to be a happy ending. Trouble is, society has shifted in such a way that most families and children don't view it that way any more -- hence so many mothers reading the story to their little ones with only a Disney-style ending that they've made up. I have my own issues with Andersen's tale and its implications, and I would be most interested to hear from anyone who has read it -- in its original entirety -- to modern children both male and female. What were their reactions?
Laura S.
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pauline
storyteller
Registered User
(6/26/02 12:57:54 pm)
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Red Riding Hood - don`t let the Grimms fool you!
Hello!!!
Who needs a story to tell them that mother knows best? That you`re not to talk to stangers? Who could possibly develope from that???!
Well, the Grimms thought that was what children and other uneducated creatures of the 18th century needed. But as you`re seeking stories to contribute to childrens development - that`s not the variant you are looking for!!!
In the better variants Red Riding Hood certainly is not a story about listening to your mother.
It`s a story about stepping into the dark woods and not only talking to strangers, but @#%$ them and let them eat your grandmother as well. Because you are not a child any more, and it`s time for you to replace your grandmother/mother in society. And you will have to face danger and nowone but yourself can figure out how to get home alive. (And that`s certainly not by getting swollowed and waiting around in the woolfs tummy for some hunter to have you as his helpless prey!)
As you might have noticed this isn`t actually a story for young children. It was probably told to small kids in the past (in most variants the sexual issues are hidden below the surface), but kids today seams bored by the story. From 15 ys and up it works great, though. And not only for girls as I thought when I started telleing it, the boys loves it too!
What smaller children will develop from I don`t know, I will be watching this debate to find out!
My favorite tale as a child was Grimms Snow White and a Bluebeard variant collected by a Norwegian woman called Regine Normann - it differs quite a bit from Perraults version. There are three sisters, and the youngest one saves the two others. The tale has no male protagonists. I suppose this is a good developing tale. The first two sisters don`t succed, but when you try again the third time you have gained knowlege and corage and then you make it?!
African animal tales, Anansi, Tortoise, etc. are also good for children? Children seam to enjoy when the bad guy gets outsmarted by the one who seamed weak at first.
Pauline
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Karen
Unregistered User
(7/1/02 3:30:45 pm)
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What kids really want
This thread makes me think of Norman Lindsay and his Magic Pudding series (which I absolutely adored as a child). Someone suggested to Lindsay that children were interested in fairy tales first and foremost, but he decided that what they were most interested in was food! Does anyone here know the Magic Pudding, or are you all *deprived*?
I have a slightly unconventional interpretation of The Little Mermaid (which I have read in its original entirety, but not to a child). I think what the mermaid wants, first and foremost, is (paraphrasing Lacan) to look at you from the same place from which you look at me.
Karen.
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Terri
Registered User
(7/1/02 10:03:05 pm)
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Re: What kids really want
Karen, what an intriguing thought. Please tell us more.
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zeppelin42
Registered User
(7/2/02 11:46:54 am)
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most important fairy tales
Personally, I think it is unfair to suggest that any fairy tale or fable is of itself more important than all others. Different people are affected differently by tales than others. We might remember our opinions of stepmothers was terrible after being told "Sleeping Beauty" or "Cinderella" and "Snow White". Others of us probably ignored that as we already had wonderful stepmothers.
What might assist a "psychological" investigation is comparison with and relation to Maslow's heirarchy of needs, or other models of survival priority. It seems that each fable or fairy tale relates to one such need. Karen's "Mud Pudding" suggestion gave me this idea, but it holds out elswhere. Look at "Aladdin", where the boy will die if he does not have the love of the sultan's daughter. It seems that this (and tales with related themes) subscribes to some kind of actual "need" for love. Look at all the models and criticism, and keep the options open as long as possible.
It might also help to dichotomize popular fairy tales (say between 40 and 75) according to the streams that exist between them. For example, there is very often a specific where good people doing evil are punished by a so-called "witch" and turned into some non-human figure. There is some spell-breaker put upon them, and goodness wins out in the end, restoring the human to his original shape. Look at "The Frog-Prince" (Grimms' version):
This thread starts out the fairytale. Later, the Frog-Prince does his good deed. From that point, another thread is added. The Prince asks for a promise from the Princess of the Golden Ball, because he knows that she would rather not risk her royal honor. This- however grudgingly- remains constant. The spell is broken, and one more denoumental thread pops up. It is of the loving servant ("Iron Henry"), always kind and honorable, but not because of a worldly attatchment, and only love. Maybe children cannot understand this- even I do not remember hearing it as a child; but reading the stories in my teens made something click. Which brings me to another point, to be discussed below.
My point concerning the threads is that these are more important to people/children than the stories of themselves as a whole. Maybe the combination of threads plays a part? That is your field of study.
Mentioned two paragraphs above was an element of a fairy tale that did not even sink in until I ceased to be a child (under Piaget's models). Maybe your study should be done upon people at all operational stages, to see what they are affected by overtly and subliminally. Maybe fairytale images are shattered by adult life, but maybe they hold true. Financial and regional background will play a large part in this. I would suggest clarifying ethnic areas in your study. A Czech would have a much different take than an American of German descent, or a native Indian (of Bharat).
I wish you luck in your endeavor. Feel free to respond to me with any questions about what I failed to clarify.
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William
Saxton
Registered User
(7/3/02 9:48:42 am)
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Re: most important fairy tales
Recommended reading (highly recommended): Bruno Bettelheim, _The Uses of Enchantment_.
I think Jack the Giant Killer is very useful for boys struggling with masculinity, and Snow White is very useful for girls struggling with competition with mother. Just my opinion.
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(7/4/02 2:40:03 am)
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Bettleheim
William--I'd be careful leaning too heavily on Bettleheim. Very Freudian. Much discredited. Useful with a grain of salt. More interesting (imho) is Marie Van Franz and others.
Jane
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William
Saxton
Registered User
(7/4/02 5:26:31 am)
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Re: Bettleheim
Tell me about "discredited." I'm not sure how you CAN discredit Freud, since he isn't exactly science...
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Jane Yolen
Unregistered User
(7/4/02 6:43:11 am)
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Oops
Sorry--I wasn't being clear. Bettleheim has been much discredited. His work with young people, his actual time in a concentration camp, etc.
Jane
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Heidi Anne Heiner
Unregistered User
(7/4/02 11:07:41 am)
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More on Bettelheim
And another large reason for Bettelheim's discredit is his focus on one version of a tale without taking into consideration all of the many variations and forms of the tale. He chooses one version of a fairy tale that best suits his theory and then develops his argument based on that one story alone. Bettelheim is very influential and should still be studied, but he should be taken with several grains of salt.
My fairy tale studies started formally with a class focusing on Bettelheim. It was a great experience and helped get me to where I am now, but I do not agree with about 80% of what he writes. I include him on SurLaLune in the annotations.
Other highly important scholarly interpretations to be used to balance Bettelheim would be the works of Jack Zipes, Maria Tatar, and Marina Warner--among many others. And many of the illustrious participants on this board have provided wonderful insight through their fiction and nonfiction. I just reread Jane's "Granny Rumple" this week along with Jack Zipes' interpretation of Rumpelstiltskin about spinning in society. They are both poignant and tell truths that Bettelheim blatantly overlooks.
But if Bettelheim's insights speak to you, use them, embrace them. Occasionally, one of his interpretations will ring true to me, too.
In the end, the beauty of fairy tales comes from their ability to speak on many levels and in many ways according to our needs and experiences. That's why I'm here.
Heidi
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