| Author | Comment |
| lalunesafir Registered User (7/26/02 6:40:46 pm) |
Thomas the Rhymer/
Transformation
Sorry to start a new topic on this one but Thomas the Rhymer has been a love of mine ever since I read "Fire and Hemlock" years ago... I encountered this website a few months ago that details transformations in comic books of animals into humans, and since I'm on this animal kick now I thought I might throw this question into the pot and see if anyone can come up with an answer.... When thomas the rhymer is changed repeatedly from one thing to the next it is simply to illustrate the supernatural hold that the queen of the faeries has on him from the inception of the tale. Changes from animal to human have often incurred certain "superpowers" on an individual, often animal characteristics that are grossly exaggerated. Traditionally though, "changing" is used more as a feminine theme than a masculine one, in reference to cyclical patterns and hormonal swings and even congruency to more obvious sexual traits. Hate to be a reductionist, but is this basically a literary nod at sexual maturation in men and women? Or is it something more? Obviously, Thomas ends up with something from his thrall to the goddess namely, his gift with words. So she's obviously a fantasy figure/muse in some sense. But it seems that this tale could simply be seen from a freudian perspective as well. |
| BlackHolly Registered User (7/26/02 7:13:06 pm) |
Re: Thomas the
Rhymer/ Transformation
When I think of animal/human transformations, I am more inclinded to think of Tam Lin, who was changed into different beasts before he was turned into a hot brand of iron (in at least one version of the ballad). Is there a part of Thomas where he's turned into an animal? Holly Edited by: BlackHolly at: 7/28/02 9:53:39 pm |
| mariabrenna Unregistered User (7/26/02 11:45:56 pm) |
response
Are you familiar with the Odyssey? In it Odysseus and his men land on an island inhabited by Circe. She changes the men into animals with her food and drink. Odysseus is warned and is given hemlock to neutralize the spell. Symbolically, the myth shows how Circe had power over the men, sexual power, by using their lust to transform them into helpless animals. Thus alienated, they cannot touch her. Perhaps the transformation is illustrating a spiritual, sexual, intellectual change and/or alienation from the society of men. |
| Jane
Yolen Unregistered User (7/27/02 12:21:17 am) |
Confusion
I am confused. Fire and Hemlock is based on TamLin not Thomas the Rhymer. Two very different ballads. The first is about the girl who rescues her true love from the faerie queen who is about to teind him to Hell, by holding him while he is transformed into a series of beasts. The second is about True Thomas who is taken off to Faerie by the queen and serves her well for seven years, at the end of which she gives him the ability to always tell the truth. He goes back to the world of humans as a seer. The two ballads are related in that they both have something to do with a man (a young Scot) being taken off to Faerie. But are otherwise very different. Jane |
| DonnaQ Registered User (7/27/02 12:46:29 am) |
Tom and Tam
Ah, transformations... such a rich topic! In terms of Tam Lin, I've always viewed the transformation scene as a representation (learning experience) of the necessity of the woman to - stand by her man - through all his various guises. That is just one woman's view though (which will no doubt find it's way into a story a some point). My take (tangential though it is) on Thomas the Rhymer can be found on my website (which is still far from definitive, as I still haven't found out how to transfer larger text files) at: hometown.aol.com/writeonq/index.html But here it is again, the wonderful ambiguity that make tales so meaningful to so many |
| Terri Registered User (7/27/02 6:46:32 am) |
Re: Tom and Tam
Okay, it's been ages since I read Fire and Hemlock so my recollection of the plot structure is a bit hazy, but I thought Diana borrowed from *both* Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer for this book.... |
| tlchang37 Registered User (7/27/02 9:15:17 am) |
Re: Tom and Tam
"Okay, it's been ages since I read Fire and Hemlock so my recollection of the plot structure is a bit hazy, but I thought Diana borrowed from *both* Tam Lin and Thomas the Rhymer for this book...." I read "Fire and Hemlock" a couple of years ago, and that was my impression too. It doesn't seem to strictly follow either story line but is kind of a melding of both. The Tam Lin parts are more colorful maybe. I enjoyed the book. I really like her work. Tara |
| lalunesafir Registered User (7/27/02 3:01:15 pm) |
Re: Tom and Tam
So sorry - I seem to have befuddled everyone! www.tam-lin.org Thomas the Rhymer (or "True Thomas") is a man given a magical apple as a gift from the Faerie Queen that allows him to be a truth teller. This probably belonged more to the earlier post about lilith, eve, and the apples. Tam Lin is about a half-mortal bound by the faeries who is, by love and rebirth, saved from his bondage. The only thing the two have in common is the milk white steed in the possession of the faeries and the fact that the Faerie Queen holds the protagonist captive against his will due to his attractiveness to her. Tam Lin does not recieve any gift except his freedom; Thomas never recieves his freedom but gains the ability to speak the truth poetically. Thomas does not suffer any animal mutations whilst Tam has to endure many changes before the fairy Queen lets him go, animal and otherwise: "They'll turn me in your arms, lady, Into an esk and adder, But hold me fast, and fear me not, I am your bairn's father. "They'll turn me to a bear sae grim, And then a lion bold, But hold me fast, and fear me not, And ye shall love your child." Diana Wynne Jones does use them both to great effect in her book "Fire and Hemlock" which is probably why I got them confused. The book tells of an older man who maintains a friendship with a young girl who's ability to tell brilliant stories as a way to gain brief respite from his bondage to the Faerie Queen who plans to sacrifice him at the end of his term. Hate to spoil the book but Polly does save Thomas much in the way of Tam Lin at the end, and beyond which, the author creates a book that doesn't rely to much on the ballads and has significant charm uniquely it's own. I don't want to go on and on, but I did make the huge mistake of combining them in my mind and I thought I should try to make amends. Well! Any further imput on either ballad is welcome, as both are quite charming. I know that Tam Lin has been written about by another children's author, but I can't recall her name. It takes place at University.... |
| rachael Unregistered User (7/27/02 3:44:18 pm) |
tam lin
"It takes place at Uniiversity..." pamela dean tam lin? its an absolutely wonderful book its the one i try to push on people who say they "don't read fantasy" |
| Jane
Yolen Unregistered User (7/27/02 11:56:03 pm) |
Yes
Pam Dean's Tam Lin was edited by our own Terri Windling. And I did a picture book TAM LIN with illos b y Charles Mikolaychak. We have had this discussion before. But it's always good to remind ourselves of it. Jane |
| Terri Registered User (7/28/02 1:16:55 am) |
Re: Yes
The Perilous Gard by Elizabeth Marie Pope is another good Tam Lin retelling; Patricia McKillip's Winter Rose and Midori's first novel Soul-string are both lovely books with Tam Lin at their core. Charles Vess did a version of Tam Lin in his "Ballads" series of comic books from Greenman Press, and Scottish poet Liz Locchead has a wry, very funny take on the ballad in her collection Dreaming Frankenstein. And of course there's also Ellen Kushner's award-winning novel Thomas the Rhymer. (If anyone wants more books or stories based on these two ballads, do a search of the board's archives for previous discussions of the subject.) The transformation scene in Tam Lin echoes the myth of Proteus. What makes it particularly interesting to me, however, is that the hero here, proving her strength and fortitude, is a pregnant and unmarried young woman. You go, girl. Lalunesafir, you say: "Tam Lin does not receive any gift except his freedom; Thomas never receives his freedom but gains the ability to speak the truth poetically." Yet Thomas does win his way back to the mortal world after seven years service to the Faery Queen. When he returns to Faery at the end of his life (in some of the ballads), that's by his own choice, is it not? He's no longer an indentured servant. The gift of the "tongue that cannot lie" (prophesy) is a two-edged gift indeed. In some versions of the ballad, Thomas protests this "curse" since he is a musician, used to moving in the world of noble courts, and will no longer be able to flatter lords or court women with sweet falsehoods. There's a kind of art that depends on the ability to spin convincing, pretty lies -- but Thomas must now carry a more uncomfortable and powerful gift. Ellen Kushner's Thomas novel explores this aspect of Thomas's story. The book can read a pure fairy tale; or, on a metaphorical level, as the story of a talented, facile, but unformed creative artist seduced by the muse, by glamour (in the true Faery sense) -- who finds himself gifted (and cursed) by the deeper power of art at the story's end: the ability (and compulsion) to tell the truth. Edited by: Terri at: 7/28/02 1:47:00 am |
| lalunesafir Registered User (7/28/02 5:46:33 pm) |
Re: Yes
The elucidation was much needed Terri. Thank you. |
| Terri Registered User (7/29/02 5:09:00 am) |
Re: Yes
Lalunesafir: getting back to your original thoughts on animal metamorphosis, I just came across the following intriguing comment in the concluding chapter of Marina Warner's From the Beast to the Blonde: "Since the first medieval romances, with their fairies and monsters, the unreal settings and impossible situations have made possible the exploration of sexual experience and sexual fantasy. One of the chief tropes by which approaches to this forbidden territory are negotiated is animal metamorphosis: confronting or defining the outlawed and alien literally affects the figures in the stories; the beastly or less than human becomes an index of alienation, and often of one's own otherness; the story relates the possibility of acceptance, an end to the ache of longing to belong." (pages 415-416) Donna Q: I enjoyed reading your Thomas poem; thanks for the link. |
| Gail Unregistered User (7/29/02 5:20:38 am) |
TAm Lin and Thomas
Hello all, I devoted a chapter in my book -- Tales, Then and Now to these two ballads. I became interested in them when reading Fire and Hemlock many years ago and these two ballads were one of the main reasons for the research that I and Anna began for our books on reworkings of folk tales. I discuss the titles mentioned in the discussion so far plus many dissertations that have revolved around the two ballads. Gail |
| BlackHolly Registered User (7/29/02 1:50:56 pm) |
Re: TAm Lin and
Thomas
In response to the earlier comment about gender and transformation, I believe that Warner also observed that transformation among fairy tale males is often involuntary while in females it is usually voluntary. Holly |
| Gregor9 Registered User (7/30/02 9:27:40 am) |
Re: Animal metamorphosis
Terri, Slightly off general topic but regarding the "Beast to Blonde" quote... if you haven't read it, you might find "The Beast Within: Animals and Bestiality in the Middle Ages", by Joyce Salisbury an interesting illumination on the topic of this quote. I used the book some years back for a TV show on werewolves (mentioned to death elsewhere on the SurLaLune site). She does, I think, a great job of explaining the relationship between humans and animals, how it evolved and how the human sense of "otherness" evolved to exclude animals, reflected both in lifestyle and in fable. I believe it's still in print. Greg |
| Terri Registered User (7/31/02 1:05:43 am) |
human/animal transformation
Greg: Oh, yum, that sounds right up my alley...I'll go track that one down. For reasons that I only partially understand, I adore animal/human transformation tales...as must be evident from my paintings.... |
| InterstitialGirl Registered User (8/13/02 5:39:31 pm) |
Re: Human/Animal
Transformation
OK, so I didn't do a Tam Lin on my Thomas - but I, too, love animal
transformations!! Delia & I thoroughly indulged ourselves in
our forthcoming novel, THE FALL OF THE KINGS Heidi's note: Or buy the book on Amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553381849/thesurlalufairyt |
| anonymous unregistered User (8/13/02 6:33:59 pm) |
Re: Human/Animal
Transformation
The only book I have read recently that deals with the subject at length is Phillip Pullman's "Dark Materials" trilogy in which the animal spirits are a staple of the book, frequently transforming until adulthood at which point they remain static. On my quest for ever more human/animal tales I came up with "Legends of the Fall". I never realized it when I first saw the movie but the fate of Tristan is strongly tied to the fate of the bear. Had a great link on the topic but I lost it somewhere along the way. Tristian is supposed to represent a sort of "wild man" archetype, more ruled by his intense instinctual nature and his emotions than by reason. |
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